+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: A Rose or Wheel Window (/thread-2950.html)
A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 30-09-2019
As those who have followed closely what I have written publicly about the 9 Rosette Page, which is probably not many people, I have suggested that the Centre Left Rosette shows what is normally termed a Rose Window, although more specifically a type of Rose Window called a wheel window, for obvious reasons.
Now I have suggested this represents the Rose Window of Geneva Cathedral (St. Pierre). However whether one accepts that specific identification or not thinking about it again I feel the case that we have a drawing of a wheel window is really quite strong. Apart from the obvious layout of the rosette, I think an important detail is the way the point of connection(node) on the outer end of the spoke and the outer loops of the petals is drawn. This is drawn in quite a specific and deliberate way, which closely resembles what we see with the outside of many wheel windows and that is not the natural way that one would otherwise draw that connection, so I would argue this architectural parallel is significant.(I don't know what the technical name for this connection is, if it has one; if anyone know please enlighten me)
At the centre of the Rosette we see what, from what is visible from the scan of the page, looks to me more like a deflated balloon than anything else; now clearly that is not my identification, as to what it is, and that would be indicative of a much too early technological breakthrough. In my analysis I have associated it, to the best of my ability, with the bulbous dome of the St. Pierre cathedral. So I don't view that centre illustration to be part of the Rose Window as such, nevertheless the parallel with a wheel window seems strong to me and better than any other explanation that I am aware of that explains the specific details of this rosette.
I thought I would reintroduce that idea as have not mentioned it to the best of my knowledge in this forum and my mind has recently returned to it.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - -JKP- - 30-09-2019
I have numerous ideas for those wheel shapes (especially rota 2, 4, & 8), including water wheels or spiritual emanations (which were often represented with rayed shapes), or a combination of both since Pagan thinking considered water and spirituality as inseparable.
The scalloped shapes in rotum 4 (middle-left) could be a rose window, but they remind me of enclosed courtyards with archways around the perimeter and fountain gardens in the middle.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 01-10-2019
(30-09-2019, 11:40 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have numerous ideas for those wheel shapes (especially rota 2, 4, & 8), including water wheels or spiritual emanations (which were often represented with rayed shapes), or a combination of both since Pagan thinking considered water and spirituality as inseparable.
The scalloped shapes in rotum 4 (middle-left) could be a rose window, but they remind me of enclosed courtyards with archways around the perimeter and fountain gardens in the middle.
Do you have an example of an enclosed courtyard that resembles the centre left Rosette?
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Monica Yokubinas - 01-10-2019
Here is the English translation of the book You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. By: Fulcanelli read page 6 Rose windows Alchemical explanation.
In the Voynich page 66v has the same rose symbol in the center of the wheel as does the larger 9 rosette folio.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - -JKP- - 01-10-2019
If you glance through these, Mark, you'll see some with the narrow pillars with the knob near the top, and quite a number have fountains in the center.
These aren't the best examples, it's a general search and I can't go through my files right now (I have a deadline in a couple of hours), but it's enough to give the idea of the ones that are fountain gardens surrounded by archways:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 01-10-2019
(01-10-2019, 01:39 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you glance through these, Mark, you'll see some with the narrow pillars with the knob near the top, and quite a number have fountains in the center.
These aren't the best examples, it's a general search and I can't go through my files right now (I have a deadline in a couple of hours), but it's enough to give the idea of the ones that are fountain gardens surrounded by archways:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Obviously the chief problem that I see with these is that in the drawing they curve inwards towards a point, quite unlike what we see with columns/pillars. Similarly medieval courtyards are normally square in shape not circular. So there is no point in space for which a medieval courtyard could resemble the drawing. Nevertheless I think it is perfectly possible for the author to have chosen to represent things in a deliberately distorted way, so as to conform to the design layout of the page.
It is funny that I do indeed observe a medieval cloister/courtyard represented on the page, just elsewhere. However I find that drawing in the bottom right rosette, drawn from above. This is what some have claimed is a drawing of the garden of eden with the 4 rivers, but I interpret as 4 cloister paths leading to a central fountain. X shaped cloister paths are much less common that + shaped cloister paths, which from my perspective is advantageous in identification. Obviously I have a candidate for the cloister garden in question and I think there is an uncanny resemblance. It is worth noting that I believe the garden of eden was an inspiration for the paradise garden and probably also indirectly an influence on the design of medieval cloisters/courtyards with their central gardens.
Another salient point I think is that both you and I make architectural associations with the centre left rosette rather than purely cosmological associations. Given the presence of drawings of buildings and walls on the page this fits more closely with that perspective than the cosmological interpretation of the page.
In that vein I think it also worth observing that at the lower end of the bottom centre rosette we have what looks very much like flamboyant tracery going along side vertical pillars again consistent with an architectural interpretation. As I have stated elsewhere I associate the bottom centre rosette with an illustration of a ceiling from below.
To reiterate, from my point of view, illustrations of buildings and architectural features amongst other things on the page seem far more consistent with it being a map than a representation of the planets.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - -JKP- - 02-10-2019
Mark, if you picture the rosette as an aerial view, then the arches would have to curve inward to fit the circle motif.
Also, courtyards are not always square, some are hexagonal (I've seen an extremely beautiful fountain-garden courtyard that was hexagonal). Plus the whole rosette page is done in a circle motif. In medieval drawings many things that are square in real life were drawn as circular (especially gardens) and schematics (like Lullian diagrams) were very frequently circular.
I don't think it has to be all cosmological or all literal. I've blogged about the possibility that the outer corners might be literal (the material world) and the ones at positions 2, 4, 6, and 8 (and possibly the center) might be cosmological. In other words, a drawing in two planes. Even this has an analog in 16th century drawings, in which the literal and cosmological were seen as "layers" (I posted an example). I think the center might be the meeting point between the two (like a church/temple/synagogue or some place like Rome or Jerusalem, for instance), which is where the material and spiritual realms meet.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 02-10-2019
This is what I think looks very much like Flamboyant Tracery->
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 02-10-2019
The attached image illustrates my ideas regarding the drawing representing the aerial view of cloisters with an ajoining herb garden. The cloisters have a X Shaped paths rather than the more common + Shaped paths. In the centre of the cloisters there is statue. Obviously I have a very specific location in mind.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - -JKP- - 02-10-2019
(02-10-2019, 02:35 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The attached image illustrates my ideas regarding the drawing representing the aerial view of cloisters with an ajoining herb garden. The cloisters have a X Shaped paths rather than the more common + Shaped paths. In the centre of the cloisters there is statue. Obviously I have a very specific location in mind.
That's what it looks like to me too. In fact, I must have looked at about 4,000 aerial photos of gardens, searching for the X shaped style (they are in the minority) and saved all the ones I could find on my hard drive (this was about 8 or 9 years ago). I still haven't had time to evaluate them.
I did find one very good architectural drawing that matches quite well. I don't know how hard it would be for me to locate it in my files (maybe minutes, maybe days).