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+--- Thread: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? (/thread-2922.html)
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How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - Mark Knowles - 10-09-2019
If the text in the Voynich is highly structured, but meaningless then wouldn't it in fact have been easier to just use a simple cipher to write text that was meaningful. Why would one prefer a meaningless text to one which was written in a cipher unless one had no knowledge of ciphers?
RE: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - RobGea - 10-09-2019
1) How does one quantify the 'effort' in creating an enciphered text vs. an asemic text.
2) Ciphers can be deciphered, asemic writing cannot.
RE: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - Anton - 10-09-2019
This is a question which hardly has a definite answer, so I moved it from Q2E to the Voynich Talk.
Yes, a simple cipher is probably deciphered simply
It should be a not-so-simple cipher then.
RE: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - Koen G - 10-09-2019
I think the only way to find out is to try it. Otherwise it's pure speculation.
What we do know is that the VM would be a relatively massive ciphertext, so any increase in complexity would lead to a large increase in effort, if it is to be sustained throughout the whole text.
RE: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - Mark Knowles - 10-09-2019
(10-09-2019, 07:09 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think the only way to find out is to try it. Otherwise it's pure speculation.
What we do know is that the VM would be a relatively massive ciphertext, so any increase in complexity would lead to a large increase in effort, if it is to be sustained throughout the whole text.
I agree it is very much a speculative question. I just doubt that there would have necessarily been more work involved with producing a manuscript like the Voynich using a simple substitution cipher copying from an existing text than producing complexly structured nonsense text of the kind found in the Voynich.
RE: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - -JKP- - 11-09-2019
The majority of medieval simple-substitution ciphertexts that I've seen can be learned in about 20 minutes. After that, it's just a matter of writing as though you are using a different alphabet (similar to learning Russian or Greek alphabets and then writing your text with those shapes rather than Latin shapes). In fact, quite a few of them have shapes in common with the letter they are substituting, which makes it even easier to remember (this appears to be deliberate). After c. 1500 things get more complicated, but in the early 15th century, ciphers are pretty simple.
I did see an interesting cipher from the Jewish Kabbalah community that was probably inspired by magic squares, where the alphabet was portioned three characters to the square, but when I played with it (and variations of it), I couldn't find a configuration that resulted in text that was strongly positional, as is the VMS.
The VMS is significantly different from substitution ciphers. It has many regular patterns but, within that, there is a certain level of "something" extra. I'm reluctant to call it sophistication, but it does not appear to be random. Measured and planned might be a better way to describe it. It diverges just enough from preceding patterns to suggest there is something more to it than grilles or magic squares or similar pluck-your-text methods.
RE: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - MarcoP - 11-09-2019
(10-09-2019, 01:20 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I just doubt that there would have necessarily been more work involved with producing a manuscript like the Voynich using a simple substitution cipher copying from an existing text than producing complexly structured nonsense text of the kind found in the Voynich.
I agree: the effort should be more or less the same. Just about the same effort as writing a manuscript in your everyday language with your everyday alphabet.
RE: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - Anton - 11-09-2019
Marco brings in a valid point - in fact, when you write a meaningful text, you have to produce the content, to begin with, - which is significant effort in itself. When you write a meaningless text, you don't bother about the content at all.
So the effort is maximized when you produce a meaningful enciphered text.
RE: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - Mark Knowles - 11-09-2019
(11-09-2019, 10:05 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco brings in a valid point - in fact, when you write a meaningful text, you have to produce the content, to begin with, - which is significant effort in itself. When you write a meaningless text, you don't bother about the content at all.
So the effort is maximized when you produce a meaningful enciphered text.
I believe you misunderstood what Marco was saying or I did. If you were copying from another text and you applied a simple one to one cipher, i.e. this symbol maps to this letter of the alphabet, then writing the Voynich would be relatively quick whereas producing meaningless text could be as much work. Even in fact if you made up text as you went a long e.g. "once upon a time there was a man called john" which has a meaning though in this context is essentially meaningless.
My point was that I wonder whether the author might as well have produced a readable simple substitution cipher text than produce a nonsense manuscript as some suggest the Voynich is. Wouldn't the readable manuscript have served the same or similar purpose? Or even if the cipher was a little more complex would there be much more effort to produce the manuscript. So why spend the effort producing meaningless text than something meaningful?
RE: How much work to write an enciphered manuscript v one with complex meaningless text? - MarcoP - 11-09-2019
The subject seems to me so simple that I see no possibility of confusion.
I wrote that copying a text with a simple cipher and writing nonsense require the same amount of effort: basically the manual effort of materially putting the characters on the sheet using pen and quill. Anton added the scenario in which you create meaningful content: this requires a mental effort that is not needed in the other two cases.
In other words:
1) Write a page of meaningless characters: let's say about one hour.
2) Copy one page with a simple cipher: same as above (about one hour). You need to familiarize with the cipher, but we are discussing writing a whole manuscript, so the overhead is negligible.
3) Write a page of meaningful text: the minimum is as above (about one hour) if you write whatever comes to mind; but this can take much longer, possibly days, if the text is highly complex and original.
As RobGea wrote You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the difference between (1) and (2) is that if the text is meaningless it cannot be deciphered.
If you want a text that cannot be deciphered, (1) is your best option. That is what Kelley (in particular with his first language) and Serafini did.
If you want to convey a message, (2) makes sense, if some privacy or display of cryptographic skill is a concern (as in Fontana's case); whenever there are no such concerns, plain text is used.