+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: Plant 52r (/thread-2892.html)
RE: Plant 52r - ReneZ - 16-08-2019
JKP, I do not wish to challenge your vast knowledge about herbs in real life and in historical herbal manuscripts, but there is a certain amount of circular reasoning here.
As far as I am concerned, none of the herbs in the MS has been positively identified.
There are a few very good candidates, but something is wrong with all of them.
When you say:
Quote:The VMS illustrator drew accurate Nymphoides, accurate Ricinus, Tragopogon, Viola, and Phu. Why would he or she draw ginger so completely wrong, a plant that was familiar, a plant that most illustrators got right?
I don't think that this is at all clear.
Looking at the Nymphoides, the identification is that it looks like one, and the confirmation that this identification is correct is again that it looks like one. That is a circular argument. There is no confirmation, really.
Apart from that, but at the same time as a logical consequence of what I just wrote, I fully agree that the identification of this drawing with ginger is very far from certain. The roots could pass as a schematic representation. (I don't put much weight on the colours). The flower is remarkably similar. But of course the leaves make no sense.
This is quite typical for most herb identifications in the Voynich MS.
RE: Plant 52r - -JKP- - 16-08-2019
I really don't think there's any doubt about Viola or Tragopogon. They are very accurate. The person drew plants accurately when desired.
RE: Plant 52r - -JKP- - 16-08-2019
Red pigment was more expensive than brown, and true red (like the rouge in the nymphs' cheeks) was almost a luxury in some areas. True red was a little more available in the southern Mediterranean (closer to the source), but many manuscripts used it sparingly.
Why use red if brown was more accurate to ginger? Especially so much of it. Ginger roots are yellowish brown.
Assuming the same person drew most or all of the plants (they do seem pretty consistent in terms of line quality), if the VMS illustrator could draw a lifelike Viola, why would he/she draw ginger that is wrong in every way (shape, connections, and color) and use a more expensive pigment to distort the root color from what is natural?
RE: Plant 52r - ReneZ - 16-08-2019
To me, the root looks brown, but naming colours is a cultural thing leading to great potential for misunderstanding. It is the same brownish red that is used for a significant number of roots in the MS.
The problem is more fundamental.
Herb drawings in the early 15th century should not be expected to be close to natural. That was a much later invention. A typical problem is with the placement of the leaves (parallel / alternate), and this is clearly wrong for the viola, as should be expected.
The water lily (nymphaea) or nymphoides has multiple interesting issues.
A water lily flower has six petals, nymphoides has five, but the Voynich MS drawing has four.
Water lily is typically found in herbal manuscripts, but I am not aware of any case where nymphoides is included.
No water lily looks like the Voynich MS drawing, but it looks more than anything like a plain old lily.
Apart from the number of petals.
But that was also draw incorrectly in herbals, as already discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Plant 52r - -JKP- - 16-08-2019
Well, I'm looking at this from the perspective of a painter.
It takes more money and more effort to make a reddish-brown root than to simply drawn a brown one (or pale-brown one) that matches much better to ginger., so it appears to be a deliberate diversion from what would have been easier.
A solid, large reddish-brown root is not characteristic for ginger and is quite a bit more work than doing brown or pale brown. You have to mix in quite a bit of red to turn it this color.
In other words, the person put in extra expense and effort to make it a color that looks LESS like ginger.
RE: Plant 52r - -JKP- - 16-08-2019
(16-08-2019, 09:47 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Water lily is typically found in herbal manuscripts, but I am not aware of any case where nymphoides is included.
I've seen at least two of them in medieval manuscripts. Most people don't know the plant, so they would probably not recognize them.
They were painted yellow, which is the more common color for the version that is widely distributed in Europe, but Nymphoides is widely distributed around the globe as both yellow and white, both fringed and unfringed, both with a recessed pistil and a protruding pistil (the protruding version is less common but it's like four-leaf clovers, they can occur anywhere).
RE: Plant 52r - Linda - 16-08-2019
(16-08-2019, 09:47 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A water lily flower has six petals, nymphoides has five, but the Voynich MS drawing has four.
Water lily is typically found in herbal manuscripts, but I am not aware of any case where nymphoides is included.
No water lily looks like the Voynich MS drawing, but it looks more than anything like a plain old lily.
Apart from the number of petals.
But that was also draw incorrectly in herbals, as already discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This Nymphoides has six, if looked at from the side you might only see the four you think you see...
![[Image: WhiteFlower.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/WhiteFlower.jpg)
Or here are 5 and 4 petals
This one is from florida but shows a 5 petaled can look similar to vms plant from the side
![[Image: Flower-of-Nymphoides-grayana-plant-colle...d-from.png]](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Elena_L_Peredo/publication/283152753/figure/fig2/AS:613445024088115@1523268099932/Flower-of-Nymphoides-grayana-plant-collected-in-Florida-viewed-from-above-top-and-from.png)
This one is N. peltata native to Mediterranean and east Asia, the only temperate example
![[Image: maxresdefault.jpg]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XSLzXnc0luQ/maxresdefault.jpg)
RE: Plant 52r - -JKP- - 16-08-2019
They vary from 4 to 6 petals. Most of them have 5 or 6. The Florida pic does have one with 4 petals but this is not common.
Paris quadrifolia is similar. The vast majority have 4 leaves (hence the name) but there is the occasional rare one with 5 leaves. If you go east, then the number of leaves increases.
RE: Plant 52r - -JKP- - 16-08-2019
I've also frequently mentioned frogbit (Hydrocharis morsus-ranae), which is very similar to Nymphoides (and also widespread) and which usually has three petals.
Actually, I usually mention them together. The main difference is that frogbit doesn't usually have an extended pistil and Nyphoides sometimes does. Other water lilies never have this kind of pistil, it's shaped quite differently in the Nuphars and Nenuphars.
Oh speaking of which, the names were shuffled around after Linnaeus came on the scene. Nenuphar and Nuphar were used almost interchangeably and rather indiscriminantly for all sorts of water lilies (including small ones like Nymphoides and frogbit) during the medieval period.
RE: Plant 52r - Linda - 16-08-2019
I actually just found a N. indica pic with 7 petals. It was from vietnam
![[Image: 8236937977_9e3937bba4_b.jpg]](https://live.staticflickr.com/8207/8236937977_9e3937bba4_b.jpg)
For the Paris plant in the vms my current pick is P. polyphylla, India and eastward, although there are many of the species i havent seen, for the reason that it has quite a few more than four or five leaves.