The Voynich Ninja
[split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - Printable Version

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RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - Koen G - 19-06-2019

Okay I'll ask him.Maybe I should ask for a Feng Shui analysis right away.

Quote:[Skinner] is available for Feng Shui analysis and consultation in Singapore and internationally for both private homes and corporate premises. 


RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - Koen G - 20-06-2019

Skinner answered already.

Quote:Hi
No, there is no connection. Apart from a gap of 200 years, the structure of the Voynich is a square vegetative plan, but the Fludd diagram shows attack and defence from 8 directions.
Also what Fludd meant by 'health' was spiritual health. If you look at it closely you can see the demon kings of the quarters attacking man in the middle. He (his castle) is being defended by angels

He seems to have missed that I was mostly interested in any examples Fludd may have used. Also, a vegetative plan?

RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - -JKP- - 20-06-2019

The VMS has spewy things from 8 different directions. Even the long triangle shapes match up with triangle-shaped connections on the VMS "map".

And the long time gap doesn't matter in my view. Most of the illustrations and text in the first 200 years of book publishing can be traced back to earlier traditions. Look at all the herbal literature... 90% of it regurgitated from earlier sources, with better (and sometimes only slightly better) drawings. Engravers don't work in a vacuum. They find whatever resources are available to help them visualize a scene. They still do.

With plants they can switch to real plants rather than using historic drawings, but metaphysical drawings do not have "real" counterparts and cannot be understood unless older iconographical traditions are at least somewhat retained.

I'll keep hunting for earlier examples. I don't think a later drawing excludes earlier exemplars.

RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - -JKP- - 20-06-2019

By the way... Paracelsus was from Einsiedeln, an area of Switzerland that keeps drawing me back for a variety of reasons.

RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - ReneZ - 20-06-2019

One question of some interested is whether Fludd could have seen the Voynich MS itself during his lifetime, and from his biography I don't really see any likelihood of that.

I also would not underestimate the research that has been done, and is still actively being pursued, in the area of Hermeticism, experimental magic, alchemy, the rosicrucians etc. There is a large group of researchers and the literature is vast. The work of the major and minor players in these areas has been studied intensively and likewise their respective influences.

Even if Dee, Kelly almost certainly have nothing to do with how the MS got to Prague, they may possibly have seen the MS. Same with the likes of Drebbel, Sendivogius, Hajek, and hundreds of others.

In earlier times, also people like Paracelsus *could* have seen it.
Of course there is zero evidence for all of this.

RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - Monica Yokubinas - 20-06-2019

(19-06-2019, 12:29 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You're a good detective Nablator Smile Side-by-side:



I'd be surprised if this hasn't been noted before? The similarities are manifold both in apparent content and form.

A lot of the key root words in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. deal with alchemy, scrying, prostitution/sex magic, familiar spirits, abortion for necromancy, the philosophers stone, and an object of worship that was mistranslated in the Kings James Bible as "moles" for an idol in Isiah 2:20 (the root word meaning to dig out. The very top left of the folio says:
"Take pleasure in the law of the two wells, to take away existence, a song of joy to breach a promise. Oh decree, be fruitful plunder. Mirror beseech thee and delight in the flower procurer."
This type of magic dates back to the worship of Moloch/Baal. 

The very center circle says to know the Persian Runes of the brother savage. This Voynich is more of a grimoire.

RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - nablator - 08-07-2019

From: The Testament of Solomon, edited from manuscripts at Mount Athos, Bologna, Holkham Hall, Jerusalem, London, Milan, Paris and Vienna by McCown, Chester Charlton
About MS "V" Bologna, Library of the University, MS No. 3632; 475 ff., paper, cm. 21.9x29.6; XV cent.; written by a physician, John of Aro (or the son of Aro, or Aron); ff. 436v—441v; dated (f. 441v) December 14, 1440. Unpublished.
p. 22:
Quote:The contents of the codex are instructive both as to the medical practice and the religious beliefs of the Middle Ages, for they include all sorts of pseudo-scientific biological information, pages of medico-magical formulae, partly in cryptography, and long astrological treatises. The codex is rendered unique by its cryptography and by the large number of illustrations, poorly drawn and highly colored, including drawings of animals and plants, and magical and astrological figures.

Description from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

58r  A mermaid on the sea, or lizard-woman on land (difficult to tell from microfilm) at a table, perhaps wearing phylacteries against the evil eye. Below are women’s names (Μαρία, Εἰρήνη, Χριστίνα, Κατερίνα κλπ.).
[...]
378r-379r  [...] Many pages follow of mostly or exclusively images, mostly of plants (incl. the mandrake again on 403v); quite beautiful.
[...]
420v  Apparently the Wheel of Fortune.

All this could be interesting. Unfortunately only a few pages are viewable online:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - Monica Yokubinas - 08-07-2019

(08-07-2019, 02:14 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.From: The Testament of Solomon, edited from manuscripts at Mount Athos, Bologna, Holkham Hall, Jerusalem, London, Milan, Paris and Vienna by McCown, Chester Charlton
About MS "V" Bologna, Library of the University, MS No. 3632; 475 ff., paper, cm. 21.9x29.6; XV cent.; written by a physician, John of Aro (or the son of Aro, or Aron); ff. 436v—441v; dated (f. 441v) December 14, 1440. Unpublished.
p. 22:
Quote:The contents of the codex are instructive both as to the medical practice and the religious beliefs of the Middle Ages, for they include all sorts of pseudo-scientific biological information, pages of medico-magical formulae, partly in cryptography, and long astrological treatises. The codex is rendered unique by its cryptography and by the large number of illustrations, poorly drawn and highly colored, including drawings of animals and plants, and magical and astrological figures.

Description from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

58r  A mermaid on the sea, or lizard-woman on land (difficult to tell from microfilm) at a table, perhaps wearing phylacteries against the evil eye. Below are women’s names (Μαρία, Εἰρήνη, Χριστίνα, Κατερίνα κλπ.).
[...]
378r-379r  [...] Many pages follow of mostly or exclusively images, mostly of plants (incl. the mandrake again on 403v); quite beautiful.
[...]
420v  Apparently the Wheel of Fortune.

All this could be interesting. Unfortunately only a few pages are viewable online:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Some of the lower pictures are medieval torture devises used in the inquisition.

RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - MarcoP - 08-07-2019

Thank you, Nablator: Bologna gr. 3632 looks like an interesting manuscript. My impression is that it could have been influenced by Latin manuscripts, but I am far from sure.

The Mandrake scene is similar to that in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Italy, 1400 ca).
   

Similar architectural frames as in the scenes illustrating medical treatments can be seen in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Italy XIV Century, but I think also in some more ancient ms of Pseudo-Apuleius.
   

RE: [split] Robert Fludd, Integrum morborum mysterium (1631) - Koen G - 08-07-2019

Indeed Marco, the "naked doctor" scenes appear closer related to this 10th century MS vviews once posted:

(26-03-2016, 09:53 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
As for the depiction of a nude doctor or practitioner, its more rare, but not unheard of: here's one from the influential 10th century surgical treatise, Codex Nicetas (Ms Laur Plut 74.7 c f° 198 v), showing two doctors fixing a patient's dislocated jaw. The whole MS is filled with similar nude consultations:
[Image: 01.jpg]