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Text layout at the bottom of 75v - Printable Version

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Text layout at the bottom of 75v - VViews - 10-05-2019

Hi everyone,
here are some questions I can't make up my mind about.
What exactly is going on with the text layout at the bottom of f75v?
Here's the part I'm referring to:

[Image: 75vbottom.png]

A paragraph begins with a pretty standard big gallows and "Por shey okain chedy kol sheol olchedy"... but after the seventh word the line is broken off.
Where does the text continue? To the right of the pool (kolkedy...) or to the left?
If to the left, which words are the continuation of that line, and which ones are labels?
What about the words in the three short lines in the bottom left corner:
okedy qeky tedar oly
solchedy solkedy
qokeedy qokol olkol
Are these considered as a standalone mini paragraph or are they the beginning of three lines of text that continue to the right of the pool?

Also, Voynichese.com's identification of some of the words to the left of the pool here as labels, but not all, is confusing.
Why are otal, opal, okeey and lol not counted as labels, when olol, to my eyes not different, is counted as  a label?
How did Voynichese.com determine which ones of these words are labels or not?

[Image: 75vbottomlabel.png]

There are probably no definitive answers, but I'm interested in hearing what you guys think about these questions.

RE: Text layout at the bottom of 75v - nablator - 10-05-2019

Hi VViews,

Labels or not labels, it's hard to tell. Maybe the sharper quill used above the row of nymphs in the middle indicates labels? Then the texts in the bottom left corner are not labels. On f. 75r the 7 lines apparently written with the same sharp implement could be labels for the 7 nymphs, yet it was also used for what is generally transcribed in the first line of the first paragraph. Maybe it's a label too... or it was added to have the same number of lines on both sides of the central pool... go figure.

   

RE: Text layout at the bottom of 75v - VViews - 10-05-2019

I agree with your observation Nablator.
I guess my underlying problem is about the basis for statistics about labels when trying to figure out labelese.
If we are relying on the voynichese.com site's classifications, which as I understand it is based on the Takahashi, but that it is not really clear whether some of the labels counted are even labels, or if others have not been counted when they should be, then how can we reliably use this data to compile statistics about label properties?
What was the basis for these sources to classify some of these words as labels and others not? Was it just completely arbitrary?

RE: Text layout at the bottom of 75v - nablator - 10-05-2019

(10-05-2019, 03:59 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What was the basis for these sources to classify some of these words as labels and others not? Was it just completely arbitrary?
There is a lot of subjectivity in transcriptions. I made a list of lines of what are certainly normal paragraphs in V101 to be able to extract them easily for statistics.

RE: Text layout at the bottom of 75v - ReneZ - 10-05-2019

This was one of the most difficult pieces of text to judge, when I had to define the 'locus indicators' that I have used in my rendition of all transcription files in the IVTFF format.
Of course, historical transcribers made different assumptions about these cases as well.

First of all, I think it is useful to call a label only those individual words (or short texts) that are clearly near a drawing element. A label should be 'attached' to something. There are plenty of individual words that are not near anything identifiable.
So, there are (e.g.) zodiac labels, plant part labels, container labels, nymph labels, but also 'tube' labels.
All these are indicated in the transcription files.
In the bottom part of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there are three words that might just be nymph labels, but indeed one cannot be sure.

Another tricky case was the top of f34r, where the lines don't match up.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also has something interesting going on in the top lines, right margin.

RE: Text layout at the bottom of 75v - nablator - 10-05-2019

(10-05-2019, 03:59 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree with your observation Nablator.
I guess my underlying problem is about the basis for statistics about labels when trying to figure out labelese.
If we are relying on the voynichese.com site's classifications, which as I understand it is based on the Takahashi, but that it is not really clear whether some of the labels counted are even labels, or if others have not been counted when they should be, then how can we reliably use this data to compile statistics about label properties?

Voynichese.com does not have any classification of labels in its xml data (TT text with all ? removed and coordinates added) so I don't understand what you mean. There is no check box for selecting labels anywhere as far as I can see. I wonder how you displayed the labels in a different color. Is it a parameter in the URL?

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EDIT: Okay, it's in the URL e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: Text layout at the bottom of 75v - VViews - 10-05-2019

Here is the link for all the label queries on voynichese.com (you can choose individual pages or the whole text); the difference between green and blue highlights is also explained:
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RE: Text layout at the bottom of 75v - -JKP- - 10-05-2019

(10-05-2019, 02:33 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

Also, Voynichese.com's identification of some of the words to the left of the pool here as labels, but not all, is confusing.
Why are otal, opal, okeey and lol not counted as labels, when olol, to my eyes not different, is counted as  a label?
How did Voynichese.com determine which ones of these words are labels or not?

[Image: 75vbottomlabel.png]

There are probably no definitive answers, but I'm interested in hearing what you guys think about these questions.

I'm not sure any of them are labels. So hard to tell. The tokens okeey lol [font=Sans-serif]might be part of the same line as [font=Eva]otal opal, but shifted up (compared to what is on the left and on the right) to avoid bumping the heads. ytedy might be the last token in the line above it, or it might be the beginning of the mini-paragraph on the left, or it might be a label followed by a mini-paragraph.[/font][/font]

RE: Text layout at the bottom of 75v - VViews - 10-05-2019

JKP,
"I'm not sure any of them are labels."
I agree this is also possible.
It seems possible to me that at first, the paragraph ending in otar dal daiin was followed by the next "clean" paragraph beginning with kolkedy .
While words beginning with kol are unusual as paragraph starter, they do occur 8 times in this position in the Voynich.
This raises the possibilty that the seven word interrupted line, the "labels" below and the mini-paragraph in the corner might all form one block:  an additional short paragraph that has been squeezed in where there was available space to place it...

RE: Text layout at the bottom of 75v - nablator - 10-05-2019

(10-05-2019, 02:33 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also, Voynichese.com's identification of some of the words to the left of the pool here as labels, but not all, is confusing.
Why are otal, opal, okeey and lol not counted as labels, when olol, to my eyes not different, is counted as  a label?
How did Voynichese.com determine which ones of these words are labels or not?

Two word labels are eliminated because You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..  Confused

<f75v.50,@Lt>    otal.opal
<f75v.51,=Lt>    okeey.lol
<f75v.52,=Lt>    olol
<f75v.53,*Lt>    ytedy
<f75v.54,+Lt>    otedy
<f75v.55,+Lt>    oteey
<f75v.56,+Lt>    qotedy