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+--- Thread: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” (/thread-2767.html)
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VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - Wladimir D - 09-05-2019
I think that it was not for nothing that I spent 5 hours of my life studying the work at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . I learned a lot of new things historically about Dee and Kelly.
Renee, what is your opinion on the history of events?
The original proposal for the appointment of “o” zero (regulatory) symbol.
But there are a number of questions to the author.
Surprisingly, the translation of the word daiin is the same for me and the author - plant!
RE: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - -JKP- - 09-05-2019
It's the most inconsistent and subjective interpretation of the text on 116v that I've ever seen.
Sometimes "r" = "the". Sometimes "i" = "the".
Sometimes "fe" = "me". Sometimes "te" = "me".
Sometimes "x" = "vi". Sometimes "x" = "bok" (book/boke).
Sometimes "v" = "vi".
Sometimes "e" = "here". Sometimes "e" = "tre".
Sometimes "m" = "boe". Sometimes "m" = "enob".
In other words, just turn anything into almost anything until it starts to make sense.
And even then, it doesn't make sense. What is "ve ri big pla aim ve brin the me ise" supposed to mean? He subjectively turns it into meaningful text.
I think Dee and Kelley's history is very interesting. I spent a lot of time reading about it a few years ago because I wanted to figure out if the foliation was written by John Dee (and to see if Kelley might have created the VMS, since subterfuge, fraud, and love of money were all parts of his personality)...
But translating "mi" into 3-bone to create Trebon is pushing credulity.
RE: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - Emma May Smith - 10-05-2019
p2 He claims the plants are inventions rather than real.
p3 He states he hasn't bothered reading existing research.
p4 He already knows that certain images are "allegories".
p5 He says that's he's going to ignore the carbon dating of the manuscript.
p6 He claims that the manuscript is a palimpsest.
p8 He says the imagery "looks like" "looks like" "looks like" "looks like".
p9 He decides that the first letters of his imagery guesses are cryptographically important.
p10 He claims that the lines of a drawing should be read as characters.
p11 He claims that he's found a date which reads 1615 in Roman numerals and therefore refers to 1585.
p12 He could read the name CALLYADVARTEYUS disguised as a goat, and it refers to Edward Kelly.
p13 He reckons a picture of a boob can be read as "E".
p14 He says, "if my assumption is right," but you can guess that as the PDF continues for another 178 pages that his assumption sure wasn't found to be wrong...
RE: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - Koen G - 10-05-2019
(10-05-2019, 12:07 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
p12 He could read the name CALLYADVARTEYUS disguised as a goat, and it refers to Edward Kelly.
p13 He reckons a picture of a boob can be read as "E".
I'll give him a point for creativity. 1/10
RE: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - -JKP- - 10-05-2019
I slogged through quite a bit of the paper, but it's all pretty tenuous and (as usual) involves a great deal of subjective interpretation.
RE: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - Wladimir D - 10-05-2019
I made a few comments on the Russian forum (including about the palimpsest) and asked for additional comment on some points.
The author does not claim that carbon dating was made with an error of 200 years (+50 due to the peculiarities of the radioactive background in different regions of the Earth), just the parchment was stored for 150-180 years. As far as I know, we don’t have radioactive dating of ink (and how to do it to clear ink samples from early parchment for analysis? I’m not a specialist).
JKP. I initially had a similar attitude to the translation of marginal 116v. But I re-read the work again, and I realized that the author developed, on a unified principle, two arrays of identifiers # 1- # 30 (I would call them hieroglyphs) for the main text and a separate one for marginal.
I liked the very principle of “phonetic shorthand” (for recording an unfamiliar language).
There is a similar example of writing long European “proper names” into Chinese with the help of 414 PUTUNHAU hieroglyphs (according to the closest phoneme to the original language).
I will send an invitation to the author to participate in the forum ninja.
RE: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - ReneZ - 10-05-2019
(09-05-2019, 11:03 PM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Renee, what is your opinion on the history of events?
An enormous amount of material has been published about John Dee. Quite a bit less about Kelly, and in particular for Kelly, a lot of the material is highly unreliable.
I must say immediately that I have read only a tiny fraction of the material published about Dee, and mostly in summaries. I know a bit more about Kelly, mainly from his time in Bohemia.
The entire story about the book of St.Dunstan may just be legend. It was (supposedly) found together with two substances, either powder or liquid, that allowed to transmute base metals to silver and/or gold. This means that the book of St.Dunstan, if it ever existed, would not deal with herbs, baths and astrology, but with alchemy.
The Voynich MS does not fit in this scenario at all.
Kelly spent a significant amount of time in Bohemia, and more in relation with the Rosenbergs than with Rudolf.
Even if now he is mainly seen as a charlatan, he was a star in Prague. The two most famous alchemists round the court of Rudolf were Sendivogius and Kelly. The first, of course, has actually left some famous publications, and contributed to what we would now call chemistry.
Kelly, on the other hand, ended up in a 'Wanted for crime' note from Rudolf that is still preserved. I can post it if anyone is interested but it is a bit OT.
I consider it possible that both Sendivogius and Kelly knew about the Voynich MS and may have seen it, though in completely different contexts. However, this is speculation. There is no evidence for it.
RE: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - Wladimir D - 11-05-2019
Rene. Is it possible to trust the Dee's quotation about the fire in Kelly's house because of a spilled spirit lamp?
If you trust this quote, and VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN”, then we can find traces of these events on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the form of a spreading spot, and Kelly pulled out a burning Q16 (of unknown volume) from the book.
Good match.
How do you assess the thesis about the sequence of successive English queens in Cancer, Lion, Libra?
RE: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - ReneZ - 11-05-2019
Hello Wladimir,
I think that there is no doubt that this fire due to spilling of an oil lamp really happened. It is described in some detail in Dee's diary.
See J.O. Halliwell-Phillips' edition of Dee's library (usually just referred to as "Halliwell"), p.25.
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There is a list of books that was lost due to the fire, while the book of St.Dunstan clearly came out undamaged.
One of the lost books is the "Angelicum Opus", which is most probably the "book written in nothing but hieroglyphics" that Arthur Dee remembered seeing in his youth.
That the Voynich MS does not fit the description of the book of St.Dunstan I already argued before.
With respect to the damage to the Voynich MS, there are two more points.
There is clearly a stain on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as you say, but it is not possible to say whether this stain is from the oil spill in the above-mentioned event. In fact, since the oil was burning this is very unlikely.
More importantly, it is impossible that any quire was removed from the book after the current binding, and this binding is very old. I discussed exactly this topic with some MS conservators, and they clearly stated that taking a quire out of this MS would de-stabilise the entire text block (i.e. the block of quires sewn onto the straps). They stated it so clearly that I became aware that I asked a beginners' question and I felt as if I should have known it.
RE: VMS = The “BOOK OF DUNSTAN” - Davidsch - 11-05-2019
boobs are magnets for men, that's for sure