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+--- Thread: [split] BAV Pal. lat. 291. De rerum naturis. 1425 (/thread-2762.html)
RE: [split] BAV Pal. lat. 291. De rerum naturis. 1425 - -JKP- - 07-05-2019
The big-foot guy is also in one of the early medieval mappae mundi in the Bodleian? Library (I think that's where I remember seeing it) and made its way into many of the copies of "John Mandeville's" adventures.
I very much get the feeling that De Rerum Naturis was inspired by multiple sources. It's a pretty extensive manuscript, one would almost have to.
RE: Parallels for Moon/Sun/... faces - Koen G - 07-05-2019
(07-05-2019, 05:41 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, and sorry to get off topic again, but i was thinking about the idea you have presented before that the vms is not the product of an author, but a copy of something older. What if it was the product of someone presenting various concepts perhaps seen elsewhere, old, new, repeated in various ways, but presenting these various concepts in yet a anothrr way, with hints towards the references, like to this work, and others.
Precisely. Right now I'm in doubt between two options. One, it's fairly standard material processed in an unusual way for mnemonic purposes.
Alternatively, and in my opinion more likely, is that it's unusual material covered witha vaguely familiar coat. This could be either again for mnemonic purposes or for secrecy (to avoid the censor, or competitors, or ..)
The images of the houses/springs look just like this.
RE: Parallels for Moon/Sun/... faces - Linda - 07-05-2019
(07-05-2019, 05:52 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-05-2019, 05:41 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, and sorry to get off topic again, but i was thinking about the idea you have presented before that the vms is not the product of an author, but a copy of something older. What if it was the product of someone presenting various concepts perhaps seen elsewhere, old, new, repeated in various ways, but presenting these various concepts in yet a another way, with hints towards the references, like to this work, and others.
Precisely. Right now I'm in doubt between two options. One, it's fairly standard material processed in an unusual way for mnemonic purposes.
Alternatively, and in my opinion more likely, is that it's unusual material covered witha vaguely familiar coat. This could be either again for mnemonic purposes or for secrecy (to avoid the censor, or competitors, or ..)
The images of the houses/springs look just like this.
Combinations of concepts, perhaps, like house in terms of to what house do you belong, one's origins. Then take that concept of river origins and apply people to it, and how they evolved from that point forward. The Indus civilization, the Euphrates, the Nile, the Danube...
(07-05-2019, 05:48 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The big-foot guy is also in one of the early medieval mappae mundi in the Bodleian? Library (I think that's where I remember seeing it) and made its way into many of the copies of "John Mandeville's" adventures.
I very much get the feeling that De Rerum Naturis was inspired by multiple sources. It's a pretty extensive manuscript, one would almost have to.
Yes me too, and the vms also. I feel like it was put together by someone who came across a lot of manuscripts in their time.
RE: [split] BAV Pal. lat. 291. De rerum naturis. 1425 - bi3mw - 08-05-2019
(07-05-2019, 04:33 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Look at this, it depicts some kind of sources but apparently they have to be in houses with quite familiar roof patterns.
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These umbrella-shaped things in the VMS could actually be houses or tents ( in the mountains ). I've had this assumption for some time. It would be interesting to know what should be shown with these rivers. I do not think they are real ( named ) rivers.
RE: [split] BAV Pal. lat. 291. De rerum naturis. 1425 - MarcoP - 08-05-2019
I interpret the one on the right here as a concave niche (similar to the one on the left) decorated with a shell.
The motif could come from classical nymphaei and was later adopted by Renaissance and Baroque art. Likely, classical examples could still be seen in Europe in the middle ages. It is possible that the motif also appears in De Balneis, but I didn't check.
RE: [split] BAV Pal. lat. 291. De rerum naturis. 1425 - Helmut Winkler - 08-05-2019
(07-05-2019, 05:48 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The big-foot guy is also in one of the early medieval mappae mundi in the Bodleian? Library (I think that's where I remember seeing it) and made its way into many of the copies of "John Mandeville's" adventures.
I very much get the feeling that De Rerum Naturis was inspired by multiple sources. It's a pretty extensive manuscript, one would almost have to.
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there are several bookson the sources of De universo
RE: [split] BAV Pal. lat. 291. De rerum naturis. 1425 - Linda - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 08:24 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I interpret the one on the right here as a concave niche (similar to the one on the left) decorated with a shell.
The motif could come from classical nymphaei and was later adopted by Renaissance and Baroque art. Likely, classical examples could still be seen in Europe in the middle ages. It is possible that the motif also appears in De Balneis, but I didn't check.
Source of the Tiber
![[Image: fiume-tevere-sorgenti.jpg]](http://www.tuscanyfarmholiday.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/fiume-tevere-sorgenti.jpg)
I dont know if this is the same thing as the nymphaei but there often seems to be architecture built around springs.
RE: [split] BAV Pal. lat. 291. De rerum naturis. 1425 - Linda - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 08:29 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-05-2019, 05:48 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The big-foot guy is also in one of the early medieval mappae mundi in the Bodleian? Library (I think that's where I remember seeing it) and made its way into many of the copies of "John Mandeville's" adventures.
I very much get the feeling that De Rerum Naturis was inspired by multiple sources. It's a pretty extensive manuscript, one would almost have to.
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there are several bookson the sources of De universo
I found this list of extant versions
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Hrabanus Maurus also did these pattern poems.
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RE: [split] BAV Pal. lat. 291. De rerum naturis. 1425 - MarcoP - 08-05-2019
There are several similar buildings in De Balneis Putolaneis You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The illustrations appear not to support the idea I proposed above: these look like cylindrical buildings covered by domes.
RE: [split] BAV Pal. lat. 291. De rerum naturis. 1425 - Koen G - 08-05-2019
If we take the image literally, it is most like the Balneis buildings rather than the alcove, since the scalloped edge points down instead of up. But I'm not sure if it matters much, it is clear that architecture is placed at or over the source.
The VM examples go strongly with the "roof" part, it's even got a finial. But then this is placed on top of those scales.
The "scales" most often stand for another type of roof or mountainous terrain.
So we can interpret the VM "pinecones" as either two roofs combined, or a roof on a mountain.
Note how the flow that comes from the VM "mountain" is different than that in the BAV MS. In the VM, many tiny "rivers" come together to form the big one. With this in mind, it seems reasonable to take the scales as mountains rather than a roof.
Of course, mountains don't have a roof (at least not a literal one). But what if the VM artist was used to the convention where a roofed building was drawn over a source? Imagine a text like "The x mountains are source of river y". You draw a mountain with converging little streams coming from it (as is often the case in reality), and since the mountain is a source, you slap a roof on it, finial and all.