+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: M. Yokubinas translation (/thread-2761.html)
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - Monica Yokubinas - 04-05-2019
(03-05-2019, 11:43 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wow, so seriously correct my flaws and i await your illuminated translations...(03-05-2019, 11:37 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are asking me to explain one letter and its usage in the Voynich when I'm still trying to understand 3 other blends from one glyph while working on page 37r. try the letter exchange for yourself, on any Voynich word and see if it works for you.
Yes, I am asking you to explain one letter and its usage because if THIS particular letter doesn't show up in the manuscript as one would expect it to, regardless of the language, then there is something wrong with the method.
The letter g is frequent in MOST western and middle eastern languages, and appears in any position in words, so you can't just ignore the anomalous behavior, you have to deal with it.
You published your paper on academia.edu, so you are the one who put it up for public commentary, and I would assume you want to be taken seriously.
Wouldn't it be better to find any flaws in the method (or in the overall theory) and CORRECT them rather than going on and on for months or years mis-translating it?
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - -JKP- - 04-05-2019
Monica, the fundamental problem with substitution-cipher translations (which is what yours appears to be) is that the position of the glyphs in the VMS, in its raw form, does not match natural language patterns. Plus, as soon as you say a glyph does double-duty, then there are even fewer instances of what SHOULD be a common letter in the manuscript.
You have picked a word here and there and applied a substitution code (including one for a very questionable plant ID) and have not explained why a normal letter that is used in pretty much every western language does not show up in the VMS as it should in natural language using your system.
.
As for me explaining my theory, I was NOT the one who published the paper. You were. It is your responsibility to explain the parts that don't add up. If you don't want to do that, then don't post your articles for public critique until you are ready to defend your ideas.
Throwing it back at me is not a defense of your ideas, it's simply avoidance.
If you can explain YOUR theory in a way that WORKS with the peculiarities of VMS text, that takes them into account, then you really HAVE something—something worthwhile. Explain the missing instances of the letter "g" and you will have accomplished something that hasn't been done yet.
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - Monica Yokubinas - 04-05-2019
(04-05-2019, 01:18 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Monica, the fundamental problem with substitution-cipher translations (which is what yours appears to be) is that the position of the glyphs in the VMS, in its raw form, does not match natural language patterns. Plus, as soon as you say a glyph does double-duty, then there are even fewer instances of what SHOULD be a common letter in the manuscript.
You have picked a word here and there and applied a substitution code (including one for a very questionable plant ID) and have not explained why a normal letter that is used in pretty much every western language does not show up in the VMS as it should in natural language using your system.
.
As for me explaining my theory, I was NOT the one who published the paper. You were. It is your responsibility to explain the parts that don't add up. If you don't want to do that, then don't post your articles for public critique until you are ready to defend your ideas.
Throwing it back at me is not a defense of your ideas, it's simply avoidance.
If you can explain YOUR theory in a way that WORKS with the peculiarities of VMS text, that takes them into account, then you really HAVE something—something worthwhile. Explain the missing instances of the letter "g" and you will have accomplished something that hasn't been done yet.
You actually have just made my point for me... look at YOUR OWN 5 sentences above and only twice is 'g' in the middle of a word above for the word language.
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - Linda - 04-05-2019
(04-05-2019, 12:08 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-05-2019, 01:18 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Throwing it back at me is not a defense of your ideas, it's simply avoidance.
If you can explain YOUR theory in a way that WORKS with the peculiarities of VMS text, that takes them into account, then you really HAVE something—something worthwhile. Explain the missing instances of the letter "g" and you will have accomplished something that hasn't been done yet.
You actually have just made my point for me... look at YOUR OWN 5 sentences above and only twice is 'g' in the middle of a word above for the word language.
That doesn't prove anything at all. You actually have to defend your theory. Whether or not we are using the letter g in our responses is irrelevant.
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - -JKP- - 04-05-2019
Quote:Monica: "You actually have just made my point for me... look at YOUR OWN 5 sentences above and only twice is 'g' in the middle of a word above for the word language."
You gave me examples of one medial "g" per every 10 pages. How can you say that's the same as two in five sentences?
Monica, the "g" showed up in my sentences a normal number of times, in normal positions. If you are correlating the letter "g" with EVA-y and ALSO with a conjunction "or" when it's at the end of a word, then the "g" does NOT show up in the VMS text a normal number of times in the normal positions for the language you have chosen (or for other languages).
Have you actually looked at the overall text yet? Or did you just come up with an idea, find a few words that seem to work, and assumed it was a valid system and published?
The reason I'm asking is because the BIGGEST MISTAKE that seems to be universally made by people offering "solutions" is that they cherry-pick a few tokens that look like they work and honestly believe they have found something and then fail to notice that their method ONLY works with a word here or there and not with the text as a whole.
If you can demonstrate three or four lines of text with a transliteration and translation, using your substitution key, then it will give you a much stronger argument.
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - Monica Yokubinas - 04-05-2019
(04-05-2019, 12:23 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-05-2019, 12:08 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-05-2019, 01:18 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Throwing it back at me is not a defense of your ideas, it's simply avoidance.
If you can explain YOUR theory in a way that WORKS with the peculiarities of VMS text, that takes them into account, then you really HAVE something—something worthwhile. Explain the missing instances of the letter "g" and you will have accomplished something that hasn't been done yet.
You actually have just made my point for me... look at YOUR OWN 5 sentences above and only twice is 'g' in the middle of a word above for the word language.
That doesn't prove anything at all. You actually have to defend your theory. Whether or not we are using the letter g in our responses is irrelevant.
I'm not good at explanations but i will try. I cannot not reiterate this enough... This is not the Hebrew of today. The semitic languages went through multiple changes. In the Voynich Manuscript there are additional letters utilized, like the Ugirit alphabet with 28-30 letters. Hebrew changed theirs to 22 letters, which can be perplexing when translating. Just like the Ayin and Ghayin issues in language where Hebrew lost the ghayin letter and combined them, which gave some words double meaning. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Hebrew changed after the fall of the Second Temple and the usage of pharyngeal pronunciations for certain letters like the G 'gimel' and H 'he' changed as well. This Semitic type language does not seem to use the 'gimel' just as modern Hebrew today with a frequency of 1.3%. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Just as in the Hebrew language where the 'He is utilized at the end of a word, and not always spoken or interpreted, the Voynich writer utilized a 'gimel'.
Based on a persons writing, letter frequency changes, for example if i am writing about xylophones, I will be utilizing the 'X' in frequency more than any other person. The highest frequency of letters in the Voynich are: Y, H, K, R, Z, N. A, and CH. Ayin is used as a phonetic "AH" in the beginning or center of a word, but given it's own symbol at the end of a word, and also utilized in a blend with the yod. There are still letters/blends that are perplexing as whomever wrote this manuscript wrote childlike in some pages and then used a more sophisticated form of writing on others..
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - Monica Yokubinas - 04-05-2019
(04-05-2019, 01:53 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:Monica: "You actually have just made my point for me... look at YOUR OWN 5 sentences above and only twice is 'g' in the middle of a word above for the word language."
You gave me examples of one medial "g" per every 10 pages. How can you say that's the same as two in five sentences?
Monica, the "g" showed up in my sentences a normal number of times, in normal positions. If you are correlating the letter "g" with EVA-y and ALSO with a conjunction "or" when it's at the end of a word, then the "g" does NOT show up in the VMS text a normal number of times in the normal positions for the language you have chosen (or for other languages).
Have you actually looked at the overall text yet? Or did you just come up with an idea, find a few words that seem to work, and assumed it was a valid system and published?
The reason I'm asking is because the BIGGEST MISTAKE that seems to be universally made by people offering "solutions" is that they cherry-pick a few tokens that look like they work and honestly believe they have found something and then fail to notice that their method ONLY works with a word here or there and not with the text as a whole.
If you can demonstrate three or four lines of text with a transliteration and translation, using your substitution key, then it will give you a much stronger argument.
I have entire pages translated, using the same system, not just a few choice words. Let me figure out how to post my scanned notes for 33r only.
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - -JKP- - 04-05-2019
(04-05-2019, 02:33 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Based on a persons writing, letter frequency changes, for example if i am writing about xylophones, I will be utilizing the 'X' in frequency more than any other person.
Monica, this argument might work if the VMS were two or three folios, but it's not. It's more than 200 pages of text, which makes it abundantly clear that there is something lacking when your system leaves out an important letter (important in ANY western alphabet and many of the eastern ones, as well).
It doesn't matter if it's a different or older version, or even a corrupted version of Hebrew (or even something other than Hebrew), the same problem is apparent.
The positional characteristics of the VMS text MUST be taken into consideration and explained when you present a substitution system for translating the text.
Are you going to give us a transliteration and translation to show how your system works? Three or four lines?
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - Monica Yokubinas - 04-05-2019
(04-05-2019, 03:44 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-05-2019, 02:33 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Based on a persons writing, letter frequency changes, for example if i am writing about xylophones, I will be utilizing the 'X' in frequency more than any other person.
Monica, this argument might work if the VMS were two or three folios, but it's not. It's more than 200 pages of text, which makes it abundantly clear that there is something lacking when your system leaves out an important letter (important in ANY western alphabet and many of the eastern ones, as well).
It doesn't matter if it's a different or older version, or even a corrupted version of Hebrew (or even something other than Hebrew), the same problem is apparent.
The positional characteristics of the VMS text MUST be taken into consideration and explained when you present a substitution system for translating the text.
Are you going to give us a transliteration and translation to show how your system works? Three or four lines?
Hopefully this will work. Being new to this site i can not figure out how to post my scanned notes since the Academia site is down. I uploaded to my Facebook account so you can view the page 33r. I have about 20 other plants done as well and can give those as well.
I took down the facebook links
.
RE: M. Yokubinas translation - -JKP- - 04-05-2019
"Sorry, this content isn't available right now
The link you followed may have expired, or the page may only be visible to an audience you're not in."
If this involves signing up for a Facebook group, you'll find there are some who prefer not to do this (including me).
Can you upload them to one of the free image-hosting sites?