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+--- Thread: [split] Diplomatic ciphers (/thread-2732.html)
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - -JKP- - 11-04-2019
(11-04-2019, 12:36 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
e.g.
#%#$#
could be blocks
#%# followed by $#
or
#% followed by #$#
where
#%# -> a
$# -> t
#% -> z
#$# -> q
So the whole "word" could map to either
at or zq
Yes, it could be a verbose code. That's all you need to say and people on the forum will understand you. We've talked about verbose codes.
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - Mark Knowles - 11-04-2019
JKP: My slight acquaintance with what you term janus pairs or common biglyphs in addition to the repeated words, which I can only really understand as being nulls, was one reason I thought about what we are calling here block or multiglyphs. As well as of course the fact that introducing this verbosity factor could then lead it to fit more closely with a diplomatic style cipher.
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - Mark Knowles - 11-04-2019
JKP: Well I am not familar with the different terminology used by different people, I have expressed things in my own terms. However all I am doing is taking principles that we find in diplomatic ciphers of the period and putting a slightly different spin on them. That is why I have been using the term atypical diplomatic ciphers rather than using a more long winded( or otherwise non-specific) term like homophonic substitution cipher with verbose codes, nulls and a glossary to use your terminology(even this to me is arguably less clear.)
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - Mark Knowles - 11-04-2019
JKP: If you prefer I could use the term "verbose diplomatic cipher" or "enhanced diplomatic cipher" or "modified diplomatic cipher".
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - Mark Knowles - 11-04-2019
JKP: I am keen not to reinvent the wheel. So using the term "diplomatic cipher" (early 15th century) describes a whole set of properties. Then what I am interested in is a development or modification of that style of cipher which more closely fits what we see in the Voynich. This could be by adding new features to the cipher or modifying existing features of the cipher. or both. Also the term "diplomatic cipher" points to what I see as the point of origin or source of the cipher, which in my research is relevant.
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - -JKP- - 11-04-2019
You could, Mark, but I don't think the VMS text has anything in common with diplomatic ciphers. They might both be substitution codes, but almost all medieval ciphers were substitution codes, so that's a very thin commonality.
More important than what it's called, however, is how it works. If you can demonstrate how the VMS text works, that would get our attention. Then you can call it Elvis or Peekaboo or whatever you like, it won't matter, what will matter is the translation.
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - Mark Knowles - 11-04-2019
JKP: So the idea of a diplomatic cipher with a kind of verbosity is one kind of development, but one I find fairly persuasive, especially as it would actually constitute a very small change to the standard diplomatic cipher, but seems to be consistent with a number of by pre-existing thoughts.
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - Mark Knowles - 11-04-2019
JKP: You seem to have been preoccupied with terminology not me, so no need to be rude.
I know you don't think it has anything in common with diplomatic ciphers, but I do. Diplomatic ciphers are substitution codes with a specific range of substitution methods or features. I listed a set of commonalities, which most or all other substitution codes of the time do not share. If this has not got your attention why have you been posting comments then? Ultimately, if you are not interested don't waste my time by commenting.
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - -JKP- - 11-04-2019
(11-04-2019, 01:20 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP: You seem to have been preoccupied with terminology not me, so no need to be rude.
I know you don't think it has anything in common with diplomatic ciphers, but I do. Diplomatic ciphers are substitution codes with a specific range of substitution methods or features. I listed a set of commonalities, which most or all other substitution codes of the time do not share. If this has not got your attention why have you been posting comments then? Ultimately, if you are not interested don't waste my time by commenting.
I'll not post comments. Enjoy.
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - Mark Knowles - 11-04-2019
JKP: Tell me about other ciphers of the period that you are aware of that are homophonic, use nulls, have a glossary, use letter pair mapping and any other features we see in diplomatic ciphers. There are substitution ciphers and there are substitution ciphers, saying we are just talking about substitution ciphers doesn't cover the specific kinds of substitution features.
JKP: Ok, as usual you would have saved me a lot of time in the first place if you had not commented given that you did not want to give it any attention.