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+--- Thread: [split] Diplomatic ciphers (/thread-2732.html)
RE: Statement: IF Voynichese does not represent natural language... - ReneZ - 08-04-2019
I'm fascinated to see in how many different way this thread is going all wrong.
1. It is now *way* off the topic of the original post by Koen
2. It has begun to rehash a discussion that was already held (ad nauseam) at Nick's ciphermysteries blog.
3. It is not up to people to prove that any theory/hypothesis is wrong. It is up to the proposer to provide convincing arguments.
4. This should not be a contest who knows most about Italian diplomatic ciphers. It is pointless, because there is no way of verifying the claims, and it most probably is irrelevant. What's more, there are certainly people outside the Voynich fora who know even more than anyone inside.
5. In spite of points "2" and "3", the Voynich MS text is most clearly and most definitely not an example of a 15th century diplomatic cipher in the style of Tranchedino. A simple count of how many different characters there are (even discarding nulls, duplicates, nomenclator words) is enough to convince anyone.
6. A second point in addition to 5 is that the word structure in the Voynich text cannot be explained by such a diplomatic cipher.
7. Further in addition to points 5 and 6, and still in spite of 2 and 3, such a cipher would have easily been broken by Friedman and Tiltman, but this is already superfluous because of point 5.
I'll stop here, because the rest would be much less relevant.
RE: Statement: IF Voynichese does not represent natural language... - Mark Knowles - 08-04-2019
Rene: Yes, well discussions often diverge from their starting point. I started by addressing Koen's point and then here we are.
My point was to prove that there is a chance that it is a substitution cipher.
Again, unfortunately, I have to disagree with you here. My use of the word "atypical" is crucial here. I have not said that it is "an example of a 15th century diplomatic cipher in the style of Tranchedino." I have said that it could be a cipher with fundamental logical similarities with diplomatic ciphers. It is not hard to think of ciphers which are not diplomatic ciphers, but could be closely related to them.
I have already addressed the question of the number of characters, here and on Nick's blog. By considering sequences of characters mapping to individual letters it is perfectly possible to provide a much large number of mappings. I think rare characters likely correspond with nomenclator.
I have addressed the question of structure here or on Nick's blog. I think how spaces are placed could effect the positional appearance. e.g “Onc eup onatim eth erew asam ann am edmark” -> “Once upon a time there was a man named mark”. So here spaces are placed such that vowels are always at the start of words. A question for you is that if all spaces were removed from the Voynich do you think the positional structure would still exist? Another possibility I like less is that it could be a diplomatic cipher with anagrams, so breaking the positional structure.
A standard diplomatic cipher could I daresay have been broken by Friedman, Tiltman and probably many others, but an "atypical" diplomatic cipher maybe not.
RE: Statement: IF Voynichese does not represent natural language... - Mark Knowles - 08-04-2019
Rene: You say:
"A simple count of how many different characters there are (even discarding nulls, duplicates, nomenclator words) is enough to convince anyone."
Well, it clearly isn't enough to convince me. However I feel like we are talking at cross purposes as I think I am viewing the notion of diplomatic ciphers in a broader sense to you.
RE: Statement: IF Voynichese does not represent natural language... - ReneZ - 08-04-2019
Let's wait till this is moved to a suitable "diplomatic ciphers" thread.
RE: Statement: IF Voynichese does not represent natural language... - Koen G - 08-04-2019
(08-04-2019, 09:36 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let's wait till this is moved to a suitable "diplomatic ciphers" thread.
I was planning to wait till tomorrow since I'm working from my phone but it seems urgent
RE: Statement: IF Voynichese does not represent natural language... - ReneZ - 08-04-2019
(08-04-2019, 09:42 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... but it seems urgent
No, sorry if I left that impression.
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - Koen G - 08-04-2019
Rather talking about the argument in general, which is quite interesting. Carry on
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - Mark Knowles - 08-04-2019
Koen: Sorry for the hassle. Thanks!
RE: [split] Diplomatic ciphers - -JKP- - 09-04-2019
I don't think it is productive to call it "an atypical diplomatic cipher". The VMS text has nothing in common with the Italian diplomatic ciphers.
It would be more productive to call it "a cipher with these characteristics.... a, b, c., etc.". That would make it possible for people to respond to your specific ideas rather than having to guess what you mean by "atypical".
RE: Statement: IF Voynichese does not represent natural language... - ReneZ - 09-04-2019
(08-04-2019, 09:08 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By considering sequences of characters mapping to individual letters it is perfectly possible to provide a much large number of mappings.
...
Another possibility I like less is that it could be a diplomatic cipher with anagrams, so breaking the positional structure.
The first point is true, but both points are *not* in line with how diplomatic ciphers were designed.
It is like JKP suggested. 'Atypical' would really have to mean 'not at all''.