+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Voynich Talk (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-6.html)
+--- Thread: Choice of glyphs (/thread-2729.html)
RE: Choice of glyphs - ReneZ - 08-04-2019
But that last point is not true for many other numbering systems. The case of Greek has already been mentioned. Arabic works similar and there are many other examples. These are positional in nature.
RE: Choice of glyphs - -JKP- - 08-04-2019
With Roman numerals, position is everything. IX is different from XI.
With Roman numerals (and the Greek system that inspired it), numerals require a smaller character set than most alphabets, and they are positional.
You can define an entire alphabet with 3 characters if you do it with Roman numerals. But how do you hide the fact that it's Roman numerals, which everyone knows? Make some of them look like letters or abbreviations, add a few nulls, voila! They look like text.
RE: Choice of glyphs - Koen G - 08-04-2019
Right! Did someone already test the statistics of a series of Roman numerals? Like entropy values?
RE: Choice of glyphs - Koen G - 08-04-2019
fach9s 9ka4 ar ataiin Sh54 Sh5r9 cThres 9k5s Sh5489
s5r9 cKhar 5r 9 kaer chtaiin Shar are cThar cThar 8an
s9aiir Shek9 5r 9kaiin Sh58 cTh5ar9 cThes 8araiin s9
85iin 5tee9 5te5s r545t9 cTh*ar 8aiin 5taiin 5r 5kan
That's the first lines of Voynichese where I replaced glyphs which may have looked like numbers to the medieval eye with modern numbers. The idea is not some kind of substitution, but rather to imitate the visual effect. I went for the dramatic option by choosing JKP's 5 instead of 0 for EVA-0.
Another randomly selected section, where I also resolved iin-clusters like Roman numerals (3,2 or 1):
5pch54 54 chese9 sche5 rche9 5kea4 8che5 rche9
8che9 45char ch54 keea3 chcThe9 ch5r chek9
ch5kcha3 8ch5r chkchea1 45tch9 chcTh5 rch589
45tch5r che5r che9 che5r che9 s53 98e9 s5r 8a3
8chee9 cKhe9 cKhe9 8a3 chkea3 8ar ch5r 9ch8a2
ch58a3 chtche9 chear Sh9 kee9
What's left is principally gallows and glyphs involving the c-shape.
RE: Choice of glyphs - -JKP- - 08-04-2019
(08-04-2019, 01:04 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.fach9s 9ka4 ar ataiin Sh54 Sh5r9 cThres 9k5s Sh5489
s5r9 cKhar 5r 9 kaer chtaiin Shar are cThar cThar 8an
s9aiir Shek9 5r 9kaiin Sh58 cTh5ar9 cThes 8araiin s9
85iin 5tee9 5te5s r545t9 cTh*ar 8aiin 5taiin 5r 5kan
That's the first lines of Voynichese where I replaced glyphs which may have looked like numbers to the medieval eye with modern numbers. The idea is not some kind of substitution, but rather to imitate the visual effect. I went for the dramatic option by choosing JKP's 5 instead of 0 for EVA-0.
You could take that a step farther and substitute 2 for EVA-s (2 was sometimes written like EVA-s):
fach9[font=Eva][font=Arial]2[/font] [/font]9ka4 ar ataiin Sh54 Sh5r9 cThre[font=Eva][font=Arial]2[/font][/font] 9k5[font=Arial]2[/font] Sh5489
[font=Arial]2[/font]5r9 cKhar 5r 9 kaer chtaiin Shar are cThar cThar 8an
[font=Arial]2[/font]9aiir Shek9 5r 9kaiin Sh58 cTh5ar9 cThe2 8araiin 29
85iin 5tee9 5te5[font=Eva][font=Arial]2[/font] r[/font]545t9 cTh*ar 8aiin 5taiin 5r 5kan
[font=Georgia]Or, you could go another direction and treat those that look like Roman numerals as though they are.
Of course, even if this is the right idea, it's not guaranteed that numbers match their shapes. If it were a numeric system, the shape for 4 might represent 8, for example.
[/font]
RE: Choice of glyphs - Koen G - 08-04-2019
(08-04-2019, 01:17 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Or, you could go another direction and treat those that look like Roman numerals as though they are.
That's what I did with the section I added in the edit. It's convenient that iin, in and n as 3,2,1 complement the apparent numbers we have already.
And then what's left is gallows, EVA-r and everything that involves a c-shape (a, benches, c-clusters).
RE: Choice of glyphs - -JKP- - 08-04-2019
I lean more toward Greek/Roman numerals because of their positionality. In a numeric substitution system, it's not likely one would see i ii iii iiii at the ends of tokens every time. In a Roman numeral system, this would be natural and not strange.
RE: Choice of glyphs - davidjackson - 08-04-2019
If it is a numeric encoding system, what would be the purpose of different token lengths? If it were Roman, you would expect to see word lengths from 1 to 6 in length.
RE: Choice of glyphs - Koen G - 08-04-2019
I think it's almost impossible there's a one-to-one correspondence of Voynichese "words" to Roman numerals. Some tokens would be much more common, those standing for common low numbers. So even if it were something like Roman numerals there should be some clustering going on.
RE: Choice of glyphs - -JKP- - 08-04-2019
(08-04-2019, 01:55 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If it is a numeric encoding system, what would be the purpose of different token lengths? If it were Roman, you would expect to see word lengths from 1 to 6 in length.
Only if it were a straight unembellished numeral system (in which case it would have been decoded hundreds of years ago. If you were trying to hide the system, nulls would be added, or perhaps the components would be interspliced, or delimited by certain glyphs rather than spaces.