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+--- Thread: Women’s Anatomy (/thread-2645.html)
RE: Women’s Anatomy - MarcoP - 01-02-2019
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (England, 1300 ca) includes a fairly complex illustration of the female reproductive system (img 20, in case the link does not work).
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents the dissection of the body of a woman.
At least You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to the whole manuscript should work. I am not too happy with the new Bodley site
We discussed the manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: Women’s Anatomy - Alyx Black - 01-02-2019
Linda, I don’t want to post a pic here because some might not find it suitable. But if you look at this on the web on what it looks like the ovary section are a blueish tint.
RE: Women’s Anatomy - Alyx Black - 01-02-2019
Taken from website Muslimheritage.com.
I think folks also copied from other books to gain knowledge, but the knowledge was out there. Not every book is going to survive antiquity so we don’t know everything there was out there.
In the 15th century, a Turkish surgeon, Serefeddin Sabuncuoglu (1385-1468), author of the famous manual of surgery Cerrahiyyetu'l-Haniyye, did not hesitate to illustrate the details of obstetric and gynaecologic procedures or to depict women treating and performing procedures on female patients. He also worked with female surgeons, while his male colleaques in the West reported against the female healers.
Female surgeons in Anatolia, generally performed some gynaecological procedures like surgical managements of fleshy grows of the clitoris in the female genitalia, imperforated female pudenda, warts and red pustules arising in the female pudenda, perforations and eruptions of the uterus, abnormal labours, and extractions of the abnormal foetus or placenta. Interestingly in the Cerrahiyyetu'l-Haniyye, we find illustrations in the forms of miniatures indicating female surgeons. It can therefore be speculated that they reflect the early recognition (15th century) of female surgeons with paediatric neurosurgical diseases like foetal hydrocephalus and macrocephalus.
RE: Women’s Anatomy - Linda - 01-02-2019
(01-02-2019, 11:11 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-02-2019, 03:17 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why are there wolkenbands around the nymph legs?An allegoric-folkloric interpretation makes much more sense in the context of water flow that we see on many connected folios. Cherry-picking ovaries and Fallopian tubes out of our knowledge of anatomy, as tempting as it is (everyone had the same idea) does not go well with the standard symbol of air (wolkenband/cloudband). The Greeks populated rivers with nymphs, Slavic folklore had spirits of the air, vilas, and there were many local variation of folklore that made sense out of mysterious natural phenomena with the intervention of magical beings. Which particular medieval folklore this comes from is unclear, because only a few bits survived in written form. Writing down forbidden folk tales may be a good reason for using cryptography. For example in the 9th century bishop of Lyon Agobard wrote a scathing rebuttal to folk beliefs about hail and thunder "De grandine et tonitruis". If he had not written this book we would not even know about them. Paracelsus wrote, however briefly, about sylphs, elemental beings.
Why did they use blue to colour the parts?
What are the dangly things and why are there 3?
Why not show the other parts of the system?
I would be interested in any answers you might offer to these questions.
I tend to agree with your thoughts on cherry picking. The rest of the quire should be about similar issues, but i don't see it that way. I keep a little section of mind open for it though, simply because there are links to body part zodiacs and maps that may lend further depth, if indeed such things are included here.
In terms of my own theory, i think Kassandra is involved both geographically and allegorically in this diagram. Her story links the history of the world with mythology, and in fact leads to a history of history, of mythology, and of knowledge, which links up with Plato's allegories regarding truth, which connects back to Cassandra again, in terms of the truth not being believed. I see connections with quire 14 with regard to this as well.
RE: Women’s Anatomy - Linda - 01-02-2019
(01-02-2019, 09:19 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-02-2019, 07:33 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The 1512 man with kidneys and bladder is a woman who is pregnant and has lips in the pubic hair, it is not a penis, those are ovaries not testicles. Unless i mistook the one you meant.
You must mean another one. I'm talking about this one: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The "uterus" is labelled "vesica" which means bladder.
Also, if the dangly bits are animals' teats, wouldn't that make the middle section an udder?
Ah yes wrong one, sorry. I agree with your assessment on that one.
Oh those dangly bits...they started me off on my geographical journey actually.
RE: Women’s Anatomy - nablator - 01-02-2019
(01-02-2019, 07:58 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In terms of my own theory, i think Kassandra is involved both geographically and allegorically in this diagram. Her story links the history of the world with mythology, and in fact leads to a history of history, of mythology, and of knowledge, which links up with Plato's allegories regarding truth, which connects back to Cassandra again, in terms of the truth not being believed. I see connections with quire 14 with regard to this as well.It is very possible that several myths and themes are mixed in intricate ways, and I like the way you think. The authors apparently tried to maximize ambiguity, even in the way they wrote glyphs that morphed into each other. They apparently liked to insert hidden meanings too. Maybe the most obvious are the human profile in a vine and the lion in a root. So there can be several layers of understanding, some much more difficult to grasp than others. Speculatively speaking many interpretations are possible and nothing can be 100 % certain until the text is understood. The labeled tubes on top of f. 77r and 77v could be related to astronomy through mythology. For example Eridanus was a river that the gods placed in the sky. In Hindu mythology "The Ganges River of the Sky" is the Milky Way. Similar ideas may have appeared in many places to explain how water magically appeared in the sky. That's my guess, anyway.
RE: Women’s Anatomy - Linda - 01-02-2019
(01-02-2019, 04:52 PM)Alyx Black Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Taken from website Muslimheritage.com.
I think folks also copied from other books to gain knowledge, but the knowledge was out there. Not every book is going to survive antiquity so we don’t know everything there was out there.
In the 15th century, a Turkish surgeon, Serefeddin Sabuncuoglu (1385-1468), author of the famous manual of surgery Cerrahiyyetu'l-Haniyye, did not hesitate to illustrate the details of obstetric and gynaecologic procedures or to depict women treating and performing procedures on female patients. He also worked with female surgeons, while his male colleaques in the West reported against the female healers.
Female surgeons in Anatolia, generally performed some gynaecological procedures like surgical managements of fleshy grows of the clitoris in the female genitalia, imperforated female pudenda, warts and red pustules arising in the female pudenda, perforations and eruptions of the uterus, abnormal labours, and extractions of the abnormal foetus or placenta. Interestingly in the Cerrahiyyetu'l-Haniyye, we find illustrations in the forms of miniatures indicating female surgeons. It can therefore be speculated that they reflect the early recognition (15th century) of female surgeons with paediatric neurosurgical diseases like foetal hydrocephalus and macrocephalus.
I don't doubt there were those in that time period who may have had knowledge of such things. But how are you going to tie these images to a historical account of same when the drawings are so difficult to trace back to an origin? It is easy to say this looks like this and that looks like that, but to convince anyone that this is what was intended, it has to pull together in a specific way. Like if you could tie each image to drawings in the text you mentioned, or some other one, or various ones of which people in that field would have been aware.
For instance, with my geographical theory, i see connections like making fun of certain repeated map styles over time, so i need to find out if and where one could have seen these things to be able to comment in this way, and build up a backstory of how the whole idea came to fruition. I dont think many people go for my theory, but i just recently realized that while i was focusing on nymphs, i had allowed things drawn alike to stand for different things in reality. So i am now going back over it to resolve this, and in so doing, i found some similarly drawn things that ended up making sense and fitting with where i had put them, so for now i feel like i am still at least partially on track, although i have a lot more to do to pull it together more tightly.
That is not to say you couldn't also be correct in your thinking, i mean, it is called the biological section because many others have had the idea that it shows things similar to what you are suggesting, so in that sense you probably have a head start.
Have you seen Ellie Velinska's blog? It might help you build upon your idea. Here is her composite.
![[Image: vms+appendix.png]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pFjYTDiro1g/UjB-_vv1OsI/AAAAAAAABxY/kMz3ItF4eTw/s1600/vms+appendix.png)
RE: Women’s Anatomy - -JKP- - 01-02-2019
The whole page has always looked anatomical to me, and yes, my first impression of the "coils" on the right was that they might represent a colon, and that the body part on the left middle was a penis and testicles. The ones on the lower left and right, I wasn't sure whether they might be bladder or uterus (or both).
Having said that, I agree with the comments above that the VMS appears to be shrouded in layers of meaning or combinations of symbology. Many aspects appear to have multiple interpretations and, throughout the manuscript, one gets the feeling that this is deliberate.
RE: Women’s Anatomy - Linda - 01-02-2019
(01-02-2019, 09:15 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-02-2019, 07:58 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In terms of my own theory, i think Kassandra is involved both geographically and allegorically in this diagram. Her story links the history of the world with mythology, and in fact leads to a history of history, of mythology, and of knowledge, which links up with Plato's allegories regarding truth, which connects back to Cassandra again, in terms of the truth not being believed. I see connections with quire 14 with regard to this as well.It is very possible that several myths and themes are mixed in intricate ways, and I like the way you think. The authors apparently tried to maximize ambiguity, even in the way they wrote glyphs that morphed into each other. They apparently liked to insert hidden meanings too. Maybe the most obvious are the human profile in a vine and the lion in a root. So there can be several layers of understanding, some much more difficult to grasp than others. Speculatively speaking many interpretations are possible and nothing can be 100 % certain until the text is understood. The labeled tubes on top of f. 77r and 77v could be related to astronomy through mythology. For example Eridanus was a river that the gods placed in the sky. In Hindu mythology "The Ganges River of the Sky" is the Milky Way. Similar ideas may have appeared in many places to explain how water magically appeared in the sky. That's my guess, anyway.
I do get the feeling that there are combined thoughts and themes being outlined. It seems like every time i see something in a different way, it is related to the way i thought about it before, and it informs the old way, thereby making both ways of thinking valid and dependant upon the other for explanation.
That is why i don't see why anatomy could not also be included.
At the same time it makes for a lot of potential confusion and lots of possibilities for falling too deep down the rabbit hole. For myself, i am still trying to update my world tour idea with new specificity with regard to the images. I do see correlations with the rosettes section and the zodiac in terms of the manuscrpt being encyclopedic in nature, an attempt to give a state of the ecumene account, it seems, in a humanistic way, devoid of nationalism, religion, and other such constraints. They were translating many Greek texts at the time and so i think the manuscript is a product of the revelations that occurred from the knowledge gained from this endeavour. Perhaps that is part of why it is enciphered, no one language would do, too much of a constraint when the info is coming in from so many various cultures.
It would be wonderful to link the images to the text. The TO maps are interesting to that effect. Not the same but similar enough to be a clue, perhaps. Lots more to do.
RE: Women’s Anatomy - Linda - 01-02-2019
(01-02-2019, 10:11 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The whole page has always looked anatomical to me, and yes, my first impression of the "coils" on the right was that they might represent a colon, and that the body part on the left middle was a penis and testicles. The ones on the lower left and right, I wasn't sure whether they might be bladder or uterus (or both).
Having said that, I agree with the comments above that the VMS appears to be shrouded in layers of meaning or combinations of symbology. Many aspects appear to have multiple interpretations and, throughout the manuscript, one gets the feeling that this is deliberate.
Agreed re layers and combinations. I was looking at Plato's analogies recently.
![[Image: cave35.png?w=500]](https://aquileana.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/cave35.png?w=500)
I guess we have to think outside the cave, so to speak.