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+--- Thread: VMS - Language Families Casting (/thread-2639.html)
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Linda - 31-01-2019
(31-01-2019, 03:46 PM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@MarcoP
I have forgotten something.
It could be that some plants are named by their scientific names
The binomial naming system we have today was started to develop in the 1700s although they adopted some names from before then.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - -JKP- - 31-01-2019
(31-01-2019, 03:46 PM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@MarcoP
I have forgotten something.
It could be that some plants are named by their scientific names.
So nenufar's scientific name is Nymphea.
Let us say, that someone would spell it Nimfea, the you have only two different letters in difference to Nirfeor.
M switches to R. You should know that in the Basque the M is not a very frequently used letter.
A switches to OR. Word endings in different languages are not very often the same. ?
But you are still overlooking, or ignoring, how the chor token is used throughout the manuscript.
Is the chor syllable that is embedded in your interpretation of Nenufar (or whatever spelling you prefer) a root word or stem in any language? This is how it is consistently used throughout the VMS manuscript. You can't just substitution-translate one token because you hope it relates to a nearby drawing and ignore how the root of that token is used everywhere else in the manuscript, you have to INCLUDE these dynamics in your analysis of the text.
This is just a repeat of what I said above, but it seems I need to phrase it a different way to get the message across. chor only occurs in the VMS according to these patterns:
prefixes stem/root suffixes
o d l s sh y [font=Eva] chor y
k ok ko lk yk[/font] [font=Eva]okee okcho
t ot oto otco oted yt dt
4 4o 4ok 4ot 4op
f yf p op po yp py
cho chk chok cht
sh shk so sok
dal dar tar par
ol olf
rare fo yo lol oor 4ckco fcho tol lke oscho saiin [font=Eva][font=Eva]dy or ol al ar olk ain aiin oiin[/font][/font] dam
[/font]
Do you see the patterns? The prefixes on the left never follow the stem. The chor stem can only be followed by EVA-y or, in rare instances, by one of the Janus pairs (this is what I call a certain subset of glyph-combinations that includes ol or ar al ain [font=Eva][font=Sans-serif]and[/font] a small number of others that can appear in any position in a token but which still respect certain general patterns[/font]). Note also that chor chor occurs six times.
Whatever language you cast it in (Basque, Latin loan-word, etc.), it must reflect the way Voynichese puts specific glyphs in specific positions in a very regimented way. If your token is correctly translated as Nenufar (or one of the variant spellings you suggested), then the stem must be linguistically consistent with the above patterns in your language of choice. If it's not, then the translation is probably not correct.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 31-01-2019
@JKP
I don't know of you have seen the attachment I posted above. There I explain how the chor can change through the manuscript. In Nirfeor it's therefore not chor but iror. You have consequently overlooked, what I said about letter identification and the handwriting.
Please read again my post I wrote today, 8 hours ago.
If you want, you can send me a list of addings to the syllable and I will translate them as I translated the six addings you mentioned today morning.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - -JKP- - 31-01-2019
(31-01-2019, 08:47 PM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@JKP
I don't know of you have seen the attachment I posted above. There I explain how the chor can change through the manuscript. In Nirfeor it's therefore not chor but iror. You have consequently overlooked, what I said about letter identification and the handwriting.
Please read again my post I wrote today, 8 hours ago.
If you want, you can send me a list of addings to the syllable and I will translate them as I translated the six addings you mentioned today morning.
The list is right there, in Post #32.
And it doesn't matter whether you interpret EVA-chor sometimes as "chor" or sometimes as "iror", the list doesn't necessarily change—it depends which ones you interpret one way or the other. If it's about half-and-half, there will be little or no difference in the list and this is the important part... there will be NO difference to the way the syllable functions. It will still be a "root/stem" word with a set of patterned stubs in front and only EVA-y (or the occasional Janus pair) for the suffix. In other words, they will have the same structural form. Which means, once again, that they will have to conform to your language of choice. In fact BOTH of them will have to conform to your language of choice.
.
And why stop at chor iror? In Latin, as one example, the EVA-ch shape has almost a dozen meanings. It can be cc, ce, ec, ct, tc, tr, cr, er, and et. It's a common multi-purpose ligature. If you are assigning multiple meanings to one glyph, why did you choose exactly two?
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 31-01-2019
Quote: And why stop at chor iror? In Latin, as one example, the EVA-ch shape has almost a dozen meanings. It can be cc, ce, ec, ct, tc, tr, cr, er, and et. It's a common multi-purpose ligature. If you are assigning multiple meanings to one glyph, why did you choose exactly two?
Ok, first thing about the two glyphs ch (ch, h, selten: hu) and eh (=ir):
There are - as far as I can say - not two meanings for one glyph, but four meanings (three and one) for two different glyphs which look like the same glyph, but they aren´t the same one.
You can´t decide everytime for sure, which glyph you have to translate because of the handwriting.
Second problem: Can you say which prefixes and which suffixes from your list above, were used in which section? I can only translate words from the plants section, because my method doesn´t work in other sections, as far as I know.
If the prefix shk (= srñ / tx[font=Times New Roman]rñ)[/font] is from the plant´s section the question would be if there is a second language even in this section.
The other prefixes should be translatable. As far as I can see all the glyphs are substitutable with my system. I will try it the next days and weeks.
As I have said, I´m not a native speaker of Basque or Spanish. Maybe you write me a personal message for discussing this topic, in which you show which prefix / suffix is from which section.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - -JKP- - 01-02-2019
Gavin, I can't do it right now, I have a crushing deadline tomorrow (Friday). I will try to get to it on the weekend.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 01-02-2019
Do it, when there is enough time to do it.
It's not the most important thing in the world.