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+--- Thread: VMS - Language Families Casting (/thread-2639.html)
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - MarcoP - 30-01-2019
This compares well with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - farmerjohn - 30-01-2019
(30-01-2019, 05:53 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Gavin,
it seems you plan to apply the method I recently described You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
It's a rightly popular choice: this system is guaranteed to succeed. It allows translating the Voynich ms using any language at all.
A few examples:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. uses vowelless pseudo-Latin.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. uses a different pseudo-Latin.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. uses bogus French.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. uses twisted Hebrew (plus Turkic / Greek?):
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. aka Rick Sheeger felt the need of inventing proto-Italic: a mix of words from an almost limitless number of languages (Arabic, Catalan, Croatian, French, Galician, Greek, Hungarian, Italian, Occitan, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovenian and Spanish). What an overkill!
All these people seem very happy with their translations as I am sure you will be with your own. My only regret is that nobody seems to consider English as the original language of the VMS. In my opinion, the choice of little known or imaginary languages like Latin, Hebrew or proto-bogus-Italic doesn't help appreciating the creativity required by this method.
As you seem to have perfectly understood, the key to success is ignoring grammar. "A medieval version of [a dead] language written by an uneducated person" seems like the perfect context to pick random words and make up whatever meaning you want. It will be fun!
dar marcp
v just rd yur fantstc rddt pst
w can w trust mtd wc dsnt dstingus pars, pars and pars
any wrting wc dsnt dstingus ts words s bslutly unrdbl
utors f suc mtds dservd t b clld psudscentsts or ven fkscentsts
sorry n tim t comment ter xtremly grt pints
nd t pars larg cunk f txt tll morning
from pars wt lv
ting pars and drinking juc
farmerjon
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 30-01-2019
@Marco P:
Quote: It seems you plan to apply the method I recently described You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The method you describe is bullshit.
With my method the sentence with your example totally makes sense:
In English it would be:
"The boa sets fire on / ignites the rustling foot."
To be honest, even with my method it is very difficult to get the translation, because "hopoja" is constructed from a spanish loan word, but that is often a problem in Basque, and the VMS language could be even more "Spanish influenced" than the Basque. But for my theory of the provenience it isn´t a problem. It makes it even more logical.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 31-01-2019
Quote: This compares well with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The big difference between my translation of 2v and Yokubinas´ flowery translation is, that his translation gives nothing, which is scientific or something, we can check and prove with known artifacts concerning the water lily.
Following my translation, the text of 2v gives a huge number of facts, you can trace back to biological hints, you would give an owner of the water lily, or to the use of the plant today and in ancient times in Northern America and their are also a short hint to a very old legend from Canada, which perfectly fits with my theory, that the VMS is a copy of an older book.
The only problem with this is, if there is something Canadian mentioned you have to prove, that someone from Euskal Herria was there at minimum two centuries before Christopher Kolumbus discovered America.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - -JKP- - 31-01-2019
The scribble above kchor doesn't look like the same handwriting (it may have been added by someone later, just as the month names appear to have been added by somebody later). and you might be reading into it that it's "fe". It might be something else. Even if it is "fe", the person who added it might have been guessing.
I notice you swapped the unbenched and benched k. Does this change your interpretation?
It's difficult to comment on your method until these issues are cleared up.
-------------
Looking specifically at kchor [font=Sans-serif](which you interpreted as Nenufar):
[/font]
kchor also occurs in the same position, at the beginning of the second paragraph of 7v, which doesn't resemble Nenufar in any way. It is also on 8v, 13v, 14r, 15r, 17v, 19r, 35r, and numerous other folios.
.
I see kchor differently from the way you have interpreted it. You've approached this essentially as a substitution code. I don't see evidence for this and prefer to analyze HOW this token occurs throughout the context of the manuscript.
chor appears to me to be a Voynichese "root". By this I mean it is frequently found in its raw form, but is also frequently prefaced by "k[font=Sans-serif]", [/font]"ok[font=Sans-serif]", [/font]"y", "o" and "4o" and/or appended with "g" (with only a few incidences of other glyphs). This lack of variation (the extremely limited selection of glyphs that appear before and after the "root") is not characteristic of natural language. Even "note form" text is usually not this constrained.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Koen G - 31-01-2019
Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote:The method you describe is bullshit.
Please watch your language, Gavin. We're running a forum with civil discussions here and trying to keep it that way.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - MarcoP - 31-01-2019
(30-01-2019, 11:48 PM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.With my method the sentence with your example totally makes sense:
In English it would be:
"The boa sets fire on / ignites the rustling foot."
Well, this is a great example of meaningfulness, just like "red leaves are annoying leaf and leaf".
Honestly, I also love most of Yokubinas' creations, like "Every morning take advantage of this preserved, to be smashed."
I am not surprised that you like your output more than hers: that's a matter of taste. The important thing is that you both successfully produced grammatical English from Voynichese. Eureka!
Vitally, things must be done in steps: in each step, you twist things a little, so that each single twisting can go unnoticed, but the final sum or all changes is enough to arrive at the desired result.
For instance, in your You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. example, you have three occurrences of chol in the starting sequence
chol...chol...chol
The first is handled differently in 2. Latinised Voynichese:
iroja...hoja...hoja
the third is treated differently in 5. English translation:
red...leaf...flower
You start with a single word and you end up with three different words. Clever!
Actually, most of the work is done in the transition from 2 to 3, which (being "a medieval version of [a dead] language written by an uneducated person") is mostly obscure.
Levenshtein distance between the two steps is 28: more than 40% of the text was changed between the two steps. For example, this English sentence has the same edit distance from step 2 as step 3:
nirfeor_iry_eaink_hinoy_txirig_eorr_iroja_eank_eorr_hoja_horr_hoja_nioja
No fear: I reink history. Tiring. Err, reload and err. Hoax or hoax, ninja!
But let's focus on the most important word in your 2v example. The edit distance between the two 7-characters long words nirfeor and nenufar is 5. More than 70% of the original word was altered.
This is considerably worse than the example by Yokubinas I discussed (she has a distance of 3 on a 6 characters long word: 50%).
Here is a totally incomplete sample of some English words which are as close or closer to 'nirfeor' than 'nenufar'.
Nirfeor is not nenufar; it is nenufar just as much as it is 'paradox'. It is more 'never' than 'nenufar'.
'nirfeor' is not a word in any language.
Your method is 100% the same as Yokubinas': you generate non-language, which you match to a fantasy/unknown/mixed language, which you translate into English.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 31-01-2019
Quote: Please watch your language, Gavin. We're running a forum with civil discussions here and trying to keep it that way.
@KoenG
You´re right, words like that one are not necessary, sorry for that.
What I was trying to say, is that there is no real connection between their method and mine.
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@MarcoP
Concerning the interesting Levenshtein distance thing, maybe it can help us.
How much do this two sentences vary from each other? Please test it!
Sentence 1:
Uns ist in alten mæren wunders vil geseit von helden lobebæren, von grôʒer arebeit, von fröuden, hôchgezîten, von weinen und von klagen, von küener recken strîten muget ír nu wunder hœren sagen.
Sentence 2:
Uns wurde in alten Erzählungen viel Wundersames gesagt von ruhmreichen Helden, von großem Leid, von Freuden, Festen, von Weinen und von Klagen, vom Kampf kühner Recken sollt ihr nun Wunder hören sagen.
------------------
@JKP
You´re right, I have made a mistake in the N - use, I will edit this in my example as soon as possible.
In the manuscript seem to be three different "N". The one in "Nirfeor" is a "ñ" and also the one in "hinoy" is that letter. But there seem to be a difference in use between them. The first one is used as a normal letter in the word, the second one is a meaning marker....it shows us that there is beginning a new word...."[font='Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]ñoy"[/font]
The third N, for example in "eank" is a normal "n".
The affixes and suffixes of "horr" I have explained in the picture under this post.
Attention (!!!)
1. I have already mentioned, that their is a handwriting identification problem with the "h" and "ir" - sounds, which are sometimes the same symbol, as it seems.
2. There is no "f" in today´s Basque, so it would be logical, if it wouldn´t exist in the old versions, too. Even it could be, that nobody would write it. So if someone, who knows the "f", would read and edit the VMS text, it could be possible, that he would write it as a correction above the old word.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Davidsch - 31-01-2019
Sentences like "red leaves are annoying leaf and leaf" and word repeats like "daiin daiin" and "chedy chedy"
remain nonsense in every language that ever existed if you want to use the entire text.
Yes, it COULD be that one or two lines, and even perhaps half a page can be "translated" using a particular substution, but never ENTIRE PAGES, or the ENTIRE manuscript.
That said, there is only one conclusion possible (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and a bit of linguistic knowledge): simple substitition fails.
However there is still hope that the text is meaningful but another method has to be applied and it's another story.
RE: VMS - Language Families Casting - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 31-01-2019
@MarcoP
I have forgotten something.
It could be that some plants are named by their scientific names.
So nenufar's scientific name is Nymphea.
Let us say, that someone would spell it Nimfea, the you have only two different letters in difference to Nirfeor.
M switches to R. You should know that in the Basque the M is not a very frequently used letter.
A switches to OR. Word endings in different languages are not very often the same. ?
@Davidsch:
I have translated a full page. And the system works well on other plant pages.
And there isn't any nonsense.
Even hoja horr hoja makes sense, if you consider, that it could mean leaf and flower.
In the VMS language an "and" does not exist as it seems. The spanish word hoja has also several meanings, for example these two.