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+--- Thread: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts (/thread-2618.html)
RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - cencei - 27-08-2023
Thanks for the write-up! The diagram you added at the end helps a lot imo.
Just before reading your article I was trying to find out where this "Villa Torlonia" is. A simple google maps search immediately led me to the one in Frascati, which seems to be quite a tourist attraction: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
So maybe ELV just assumed it was this famous Villa Torlonia when her husband told her that he acquired the MSS at a 'Villa Torlonia', not the more obscure Torloni-owned villa in Castelgandolfo... this alone would explain her mentioning Frascati, wouldn't it?
Villa Mondragone is ~2km down the road from this Villa Torlonia and was known as Jesuit residence (was it?), so maybe later historians just assumed that this had to be ELVs "castle in Frascati"... but this is again just conjecture.
Another thing I was wondering about: Could you give a rough estimate how many items APUG 3225 and APUG 3289 each contained? Is there any remote chance to track down most of its contents to find out what else got sold through Voynichs hands?
Edit: I just found the beautiful compilation over at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which totally answers this question.
And another interesting question ofc would be if any of the (documented) Jesuit sales contained a few dozen empty vellum pages... just to further disprove that 'old vellum means old text'.
RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - ReneZ - 28-08-2023
The scenario you propose is possible, but there are many possibilities:
- Voynich decided not to tell her the last details in order to keep his promise
- She misremembered (e.g. "near Frascati" became "at Frascati").
- Voynich himself did not know the last details
There are other mistakes in her letter, e.g. the precise role of the Vatican, which suggests she 'almost' knew the truth, but not exactly.
There most famous "Villa Torlonia" in the area is probably the one in Rome.
The page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. still requires further minor but relevant updates, and I am also still finalisating a more detailed, more precise write-up that will be posted at academia.
Edit: this document lists the Jesuit houses in the area, and who was based there at the start of the year 1912:
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RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - LisaFaginDavis - 28-08-2023
This is a fantastic summary, Rene. Thank you!
RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - ReneZ - 19-09-2023
For completeness, I have added more details to the page:
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in particular related to Strickland's role.
The cleaned-up version of this episode, with a bit less speculation, is now at academia.edu :
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It has the title: "Wilfrid Voynich's acquisition of the Voynich MS, not in Villa Mondragone"
RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - Koen G - 19-09-2023
The paper reads like the culmination of some thrilling detective work. For the first time I'm also understanding well why Voynich was so secretive about all this.
I do wonder about the period between when Kircher obtained the MS and when the Jesuits hid it. I understand that we have no records of any "cipher manuscript" from this period, but this in itself is already strange. Clearly, the MS was already fascinating to Baresch and his surroundings in the 17th century. The script is unknown, there are many colored plant drawings, scientific-looking diagrams, nude figures... All of this must have drawn attention if the MS was somehow available to the public. Since it doesn't show up in any catalogs, may it have been kept hidden or at least separate already even before the Jesuits started dispersing their collection to avoid confiscation?
RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - ReneZ - 19-09-2023
(19-09-2023, 11:13 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All of this must have drawn attention if the MS was somehow available to the public. Since it doesn't show up in any catalogs, may it have been kept hidden or at least separate already even before the Jesuits started dispersing their collection to avoid confiscation?
I know what you are saying, and it is indeed a bit frustrating that no reference has been found. I still have an open investigation into this, but it is a long shot, and I need to rely entirely on others to check it.
Now there are subjective and objective parts to the answer. To begin with, the library of the Jesuits in the Collegium Romanum was far from open to the public, and no manuscript catalogues have survived. Common knowledge has it that this never existed, but modern researchers consider it possible that it did exist, but was destroyed prior to the confiscation. There is a surviving letter from the head librarian Patrizi, warning for the upcoming confiscation, and the need to take action. I have not seen it yet so this remains a bit vague.
The main source for the non-existence of such a catalogue is a paper by Diamond, which is referred to at my site.
Now for the subjective part.
I tend to believe that the Voynich MS wasn't really that interesting for the people owning it. Kircher may have been the lone Jesuit who could have been interested in it, and he was quite an 'outsider'. However, also he has not shown any indication of interest apart from the lone response to the letter from Muretus in 1637.
After all, the Jesuits were essentially only interested in: (1) religion, (2) education; and this education was according to very traditional lines. Any religious or classical text would be valued over a weird unreadable MS.
More objectively:
of the 200 or so manuscripts in the list to be sold to the Vatlican, there is basically no information about the vast majority of them, from the time they were in Moretus' library until they were sold to the Vatican and Voynich.
This is not particular for the Voynich MS. Also for Moretus' library, only a catalogue of his printed books has survived. (This catalogue is handwritten and is part of the MSs that was sold to the Vatican).
This is exemplified by a book written by another (earlier) librarian Pietro Lazzari or Lazzeri, which is like a florilegium of the books in his library. This mentions only a handful of the books on this list, as also pointed out by Ruysschaert.
RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - LisaFaginDavis - 19-09-2023
I agree with Rene here - the evidence suggests not that the Jesuits were intentionally hiding the VMS but that they simply weren't very interested in it. The vast majority of pre-modern libraries don't have manuscript catalogues, or if they do, they aren't nearly detailed enough to allow for positive affiliation of a particular entry with a particular manuscript. The VMS is not at all exceptional in that regard.
By the same token, Voynich was not at all unusual in obfuscating the source of the VMS or any other manuscript. It was not at all uncommon for dealers during that period to refuse to say where they had acquired something.
In other words, it's not at all surprising that no one has found reference to the VMS in the Jesuit library and it is not all surprising that Voynich wasn't honest about where he got it.
RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - Koen G - 19-09-2023
Right, I understand that the Jesuits probably used this library with certain specific purposes in mind, and I did not take into account that indeed so much of their effort went into religious studies.
Still, if the cipher manuscript was found between these more regular, 'expected' works, wouldn't it have been one of the manuscripts to stand out? Even an earlier alchemist saw it as a sphinx in his collection. And Jesuits, no matter how pious, were also regular people, who may have been intrigued by the undeniable mystery presented by this strange object from Kircher's collection.
Now I understand that this doesn't necessarily mean that any written record was produced or should survive, so that does answer my question.
RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - ReneZ - 20-09-2023
Undoubtedly, the MS would have stood out, but some of the main reasons why it is famous today would not apply in those days. Nowadays, we know it is not just 'some foreign language that we cannot read', but in those days it would probably be classified as that.
And what is still true nowadays was also true then: there are so many perfectly readable books that have not been studied adequately, and these would get the priority. (Paraphrasing Lynn Thorndike).
My tentative explanation is that the MS is highly interesting, but only to a very small subset of people. Among medievalists, Lisa is an example of such a small subset.
A somewhat related anecdote: when Stefan Guzy found out that Widemann lived in the house that formerly belonged to Rauwolf (both were medical doctors in Augsburg), and he found some older references to lending 600 florins between members in these families, he contacted a modern expert on Rauwolf. His reaction to seeing the Voynich MS image was, that this is not the sort of thing that Rauwolf would have been interested in.
Now one should never quickly discard such a professional opinion, but then I thought to myself: I am a space engineer. I should not have been interested in this...
RE: Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts - MarcoP - 20-09-2023
(19-09-2023, 06:01 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.After all, the Jesuits were essentially only interested in: (1) religion, (2) education; and this education was according to very traditional lines.
Hi Rene,
here in Italy, Jesuits are still regarded as an order of scientists. There might be some truth to this, for instance You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has 157 entries.
Some examples:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (b.1631)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (b.1638)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (b.1711)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (b.1805)
This said, I don't think the "age of enlightenment" was particular fond of the middle ages, so I doubt these guys would have been intrigued by the VMS. I am speculating, of course.