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+--- Thread: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae (/thread-2527.html)
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RE: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - MarcoP - 27-10-2018
(27-10-2018, 11:58 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does this mean a transcription error by the printed text, or an error which was already present in the original document?
Migne's source is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I think it very unlikely that the original papal document misspelled the name of a church, but one would have to check the original to be 100% sure.
RE: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - -JKP- - 27-10-2018
(27-10-2018, 11:58 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This might be better in a dedicated thread.
I agree Rene, I'd also like to know more first about the appearance of the "ae" ligature around c.1400. Still, I must say something like this also crossed my mind once, that perhaps the "x" in "Marix" was originally an "a" which was replaced to make it more spell-like. Looking into the significance and use of "Maria Moria" might be illuminating either way.
...
I have collected "ae" ligatures. Unfortunately, not seeing an immediate need for them, I did not key them and I don't have time to look through 1300 sets of samples looking for them but, I will key them as I go along which means I can eventually pull them all out. Then I'll post examples.
On the subject of x making it "spell-like", this is not an unreasonable thought. The "-trix" suffix was added to many occult-related words.
RE: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - ReneZ - 27-10-2018
The wikipedia page about de Vinland map says this:
The Latin captions include several usages of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. æ; this was almost unknown in later medieval times (a simple ewas written instead), and although the ligature was revived by Italian humanist scholars in the early 15th century, it is found only in documents of deliberately classicising You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. produced by Italian scribes, and never in conjunction with a Gothic style of script such as is seen in the map.
RE: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - VViews - 27-10-2018
I see, ReneZ, but... if the ae ligature was not in use during late medieval times, doesn't that actually make it more likely that someone of that time, seeing it in an older ms, could mistake it for an x and copy it as an x?
My initial point was that the Voynich scribe would have been unfamiliar with this ligature.
But of course, as MarcoP points out, all of Moriae seems to be an erroneous transcription of Novae anyway.
It would be interesting to find a manuscript copy of the papal bull in question (I believe there is one 15th C handwritten copy of the Bull in Lucca: Arch. di Stato, Cod. S. Frediano 7 (Contratti G) fol. 111, but this has not been digitized.
RE: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - ReneZ - 27-10-2018
VViews, I have to say that I find it hard to understand from the Wikipedia article when this ligature would have been used more commonly.
Certainly, I have seen many of them in the 16th C letters in the Kircher correspondence, but that plays no role here.
If these two lines are some magical spell or formula, which seems quite a realistic possibility, then "anything goes".
RE: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - Helmut Winkler - 27-10-2018
ae went out of use even in pre-Carolingian times and was replaced in the 9/10th c. by the e caudata, an e with a cedille, which was then replaced by a simpöle e, ae was used again by the humanists and was common from around 1500