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+--- Thread: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae (/thread-2527.html)
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[split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - VViews - 27-10-2018
I found this interesting. It's probably off the mark, but the lack of sources for "marix morix" led me to broaden my search.
If I were copying a faded text, or if my language didn't use the æ ligature (many medieval texts use a different ligature for ae, it looks like an e with a tail), I might just misread and miscopy these words as "Marix Morix":
![[Image: mariaemoriae.png]](https://voynichviews.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/mariaemoriae.png)
Obviously, this is a printed text, but the original is 12th C. This Iohannes was apparently a cardinal who subscribed (signed his support for) a papal bull in 1145. I have no idea what "Mariæ Moriæ" refers to.
RE: 116v - Koen G - 27-10-2018
Very interesting. So i guess "sancta Maria Moria" is the nominative form. All cardinals have something like that added, is it their church?
Moriah was a biblical mountain where Isaac was supposed to be sacrificed. It is also a mountainous area in Jerusalem.
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Since we're in the 12th century, I assume all these cardinals were in Rome. So was this Maria Moria a church in Rome?
RE: 116v - davidjackson - 27-10-2018
"Mariæ Moriæ" - the follies of Maria? Great name for a satirical religious order.
Anyway, in VViews' printed text it must refer to his diocese, surely? And John, sainted cardinal of Mariae Moriae, subscribes (SS).
Anyway, I can see what you mean VVIews. Good point.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 27-10-2018
I don't know if it's relevant to titular church names, but I saw one reference that said Moria was the vulgar Latin equivalent of Maria.
RE: 116v - Koen G - 27-10-2018
David, how can a sainted cardinal sign a document? The sancta is with the name of the church. Historically cardinals could also be tied to a church rather than a diocese. And there are dozens of churches called "San©ta Maria". This might mean that the Moriae was added as a one off identifier. "The cardinal of the Santa Maria church, the one of Moria."
One of the other cardinals has something similar: he is of "saint Eustachius next to the temple of Agrippa". I assume that "next to the temple of Agrippa" is not part of the official christian name, so they are working with clarifications.
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 27-10-2018
At least the "St Eustachius next to the temple of Agrippa" is a readily identifiable church in Rome.
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At the same time, I am not familiar with any church in Rome called S. Maria Moria, and google does not seem to be either.
More to the present topic: one of the points in the discussion about the Vinland Map, is that the use of an 'ae' ligature on it has been considered anachronistic, and one of the points indicating a fraud.
Now it is easy to find out that the Bayeux tapestry has a capital AE ligature at the start of the name AElfgyva, but this may not be relevant, and one has to presume that the contestants in the Vinland map discussion know what they are talking about.
It would then also be anachronistic for the hypothetical source for f116v.
Another problem is that those (later) ae ligatures that I have seen do not at all look like an 'x', but like an 'a' with a miniature 'e' attached in superscript.
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 27-10-2018
This page says that, according to Migne, "Moriae" is an error for "Novae"
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Sancta Maria Nova is this one:
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RE: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - Koen G - 27-10-2018
This might be better in a dedicated thread.
I agree Rene, I'd also like to know more first about the appearance of the "ae" ligature around c.1400. Still, I must say something like this also crossed my mind once, that perhaps the "x" in "Marix" was originally an "a" which was replaced to make it more spell-like. Looking into the significance and use of "Maria Moria" might be illuminating either way.
Edit: Marco our posts crossed, I migrated yours as well. Does this mean a transcription error by the printed text, or an error which was already present in the original document?
RE: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - VViews - 27-10-2018
(27-10-2018, 05:37 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Moriah was a biblical mountain where Isaac was supposed to be sacrificed. It is also a mountainous area in Jerusalem.
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I can't help but note a coincidence in passing, that this mount Moriah is identified as the Temple Mount, as it is supposed to be the location of Solomon's temple, and therefore the location where the altar made of anchiton would have been placed...
RE: [split] Sanctae Mariae Moriae - davidjackson - 27-10-2018
Quote:David, how can a sainted cardinal sign a documentQuite. I meant Holy, not sainted!
