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+--- Thread: Who holds pears like that?! (/thread-2497.html)
Who holds pears like that?! - Koen G - 06-10-2018
From Tacuinum Sanitatis You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Who holds pears like that?! - Koen G - 06-10-2018
Okay so first I posted this half jokingly but compare the women's stance and even facial expression:
RE: Who holds pears like that?! - Koen G - 06-10-2018
I don't know how to link directly to the page on the Vienna MS, but it shows less resemblance overall You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Who holds pears like that?! - -JKP- - 06-10-2018
There are a lot of things in the Tacuinum Sanitatis that resonate Voynichwise, but Koen, I've never compared those two specific drawings side-by-side, and I think you are right about the expression. It's difficult not to notice the similarity when they are next to each other.
You know what really strikes me about these two "pear" drawings?
Many things in the VMS give me the feeling the person creating it was trying to combine two or three or more "things" (whatever they may be, text, ideas, pictures) into one—I always get the sense of a methodical mind, that is GATHERING and CODIFYING information (Ramon Llul's diagrams frequently come to mind as doing something similar) and this VMS "pear" drawing really gives that impression also... so let's say for a moment they really are related, that these really are pears...
in the Tacuinum she is holding pears in one hand and stretching with the other, reaching for another pear. In the VMS, she's stretching and holding pears with the same hand which FEELS so typically VMS... and... doing it this way leaves the other hand free to express something else---killing several birds with one stone (which we can now call picking several pears with one hand).
If these are connected, specifically connected (I already think there's a connection to the TS, but this is on a detail level that hasn't really been explored in full), it's a real find, an excellent observation.
RE: Who holds pears like that?! - -JKP- - 06-10-2018
Hera, Aphrodite, Pomona.
RE: Who holds pears like that?! - Koen G - 06-10-2018
I must have seen this image a few times before as well, but only after I had made this thread I saw the complete extent of resemblance.
I wasn't able to find any pear illustrations from other Tacuinum MSS besides this one (Paris) and the Vienna. There is one held in Liege as well, but its illustrations are not very similar and I haven't found pear yet.
The Rome version shows only the pear tree without the women: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Who holds pears like that?! - Koen G - 06-10-2018
The article Marco linked in the other thread is well worth a read. It is available entirely here:
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Some interesting tidbits:
- The Paris MS was made for Visconti You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- It is likely the earliest of the surviving illustrated MSS, though an earlier one by the same artist may have existed
- It was likely owned by the nymph-like Viridis Visconti You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
![[Image: Verde_Visconti.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Verde_Visconti.jpg)
- When she had the MS in Tyrol, it likely influenced the fresco series in Buonconsiglio Castle, Trento
- The Manfredus herbal was very likely present as an example when this MS was made
- Other sources available to the illustrator are believed to be labors of the month images and courtly love scenes (see p.72). Given my recent interests I find this interesting.
- The author even suggests that the courtly love scenes and fashionable dress were featured so heavily in the Paris MS because it was made for a woman.
- The MS shows a great interest in agriculture and new crops, including a very early depiction of a rice field.
Anyway, all of this leaves me wondering.. if (and that's still a big if) this VM image was based on the Paris MS, then we have a fairly clear idea of the locations where it could have been consulted.
RE: Who holds pears like that?! - davidjackson - 07-10-2018
But why would the Voynich illustrator fixate upon way the pears are being held?
The first image is obviously an allegory upon fertility and reproduction; pears being symbolic of the female form and reproduction, we see women collecting pears as they should children. The full pear tree shows bountiful life. The monkey is probably there as a warning against animal behaviour. Without recourse to the text, I'm guessing this is an imagery warning that sex is for reproduction not recreation, or otherwise showing that the pleasures of life should be picked delicately rather than wantonly consumed. The allegory involves common motifs.
So, it follows logically, if the Voynich nymph is holding pears in the same fashion, the motifs can also be followed. If the scribe, whether with intent or subconsciously, copied the imagery he most probably was doing so because of the underlying message contained within his imagery. Ie, bountiful life or reproduction.
(Although I do remember that St Augustine's first sin was pinching from the pear tree. Sticks in my mind because it's probably where old Georgie Porgie got the inspiration for his myth from, apologies to the Yanks amongst us. But I doubt it's shown in the Voynich under the allegory of original sin).
RE: Who holds pears like that?! - -JKP- - 07-10-2018
(07-10-2018, 07:18 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But why would the Voynich illustrator fixate upon way the pears are being held?
The first image is obviously an allegory upon fertility and reproduction; pears being symbolic of the female form and reproduction, we see women collecting pears as they should children. The full pear tree shows bountiful life. The monkey is probably there as a warning against animal behaviour. Without recourse to the text, I'm guessing this is an imagery warning that sex is for reproduction not recreation, or otherwise showing that the pleasures of life should be picked delicately rather than wantonly consumed. The allegory involves common motifs.
...
This is very nicely stated, David.
RE: Who holds pears like that?! - MarcoP - 07-10-2018
(07-10-2018, 07:18 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The first image is obviously an allegory upon fertility and reproduction; pears being symbolic of the female form and reproduction, we see women collecting pears as they should children. The full pear tree shows bountiful life. The monkey is probably there as a warning against animal behaviour. Without recourse to the text, I'm guessing this is an imagery warning that sex is for reproduction not recreation, or otherwise showing that the pleasures of life should be picked delicately rather than wantonly consumed. The allegory involves common motifs.
Hi David,
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. linked by Koen above provides an excellent analysis of the early illustrated Tacuinum Sanitatis manuscripts.
Quote:...the most powerful impetus behind the painted scenes seems to have been the desire to flatter and please the Visconti. In assembling the prototypes for the Tacuinum illuminations, Giovannino dei Grassi strove to capture a world of fertile fields, orchards, and gardens on a perfectly run feudal estate intended to echo the Visconti's own. ... the Tacuinum illustrations portrayed the peaceful, orderly, bountiful world such a ruler would enjoy.
...
At a time when so many were starving, the wealthy and powerful class gained the popular title "il poplo grasso," the fat people. Knowing this context, it is hard to take the utopian landscapes of the Tacuinum paintings at face value. Ultimately, the celebration of an abundance of food in the Tacuinum Sanitatis manuscripts must be interpreted as an assertion of power and class by the Visconti rulers.
The fact that these manuscripts were made as gifts for powerful allies also supports their interpretation as political messages in the first place. Personally, I see the monkey here as another expensive item to show off, together with the rich clothes, abundance of food and amazing artistic quality of the manuscripts.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you can find a transcription and translation of the page. With reference to the text, the monkey could also possibly stand as a symbol of a "temperament of a hot blood".