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+--- Thread: Gemini from wedding imagery (/thread-2463.html)
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RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - ReneZ - 03-09-2018
Here, again, the use of parchment for the folios plays a key role.
Paper would have been available and was considerably cheaper already.
Paper was considered by many to be inferior to parchment.
So, one may suppose that the person who created the MS had resources, and also an intention that the MS would be preserved for posterity.
Alternatively, that it "looked" expensive / valuable.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 03-09-2018
Rene, my phrasing was ambiguous. I am talking indeed about the "1418 workshop" but the manuscript in question was dated to 1420.
Anyway, I'll add that JKP is right to point out similarities between 1418's color usage and that of the VM. This is from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. It's one scene from the manuscript with four small VM clips.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 03-09-2018
I don't know if this is worth mentioning at all, but the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was also made at Lauber's studio and it has Zodiac images. Here's Aries and Gemini:
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - -JKP- - 04-09-2018
(03-09-2018, 09:34 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know if this is worth mentioning at all, but the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was also made at Lauber's studio and it has Zodiac images. Here's Aries and Gemini:
...
It is worth mentioning, Koen, for a number of reasons.
1) Note that Aries is browsing, rather than grazing, but it's clearly associated with the month of March. It has been argued that a drawing of an animal that is browsing can't be Aries because sheep don't browse, but illustrators are not necessarily good at natural history. They copy, they invent, and sometimes they make mistakes (and sheep do sometimes browse).
2) Note the last two characters in the pen test "alphabet" at the bottom. After the regular letters and "et" and other symbols, it includes the inline form of the 9 abbreviation and the superscripted form of the 9 abbreviation. If you look very carefully at the bottom of the column alphabet on VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you will see the flourished form of the 9 abbreviation character at the end of the alphabet, after a VERY faint z. At first I didn't know what to make of it. I knew what the shape meant but I didn't know why it was at the bottom of the alphabet. Then I saw a number of pen tests that included it as part of the "alphabet" and realized why it was included on 1r—it was learned together with the alphabet.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 04-09-2018
(03-09-2018, 09:03 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In general, I do not see such a workshop as a likely origin for the Voynich MS, but I understand that this is not your point.
Yeah, I don't think we have enough information yet to really make a point either way.
I would not completely exclude 1418's involvement in some way. Some of their manuscripts have bad drawings; this is no exception:
But might we conclude at least something with some degree of certainty? Namely that the VM Gemini was likely an attempt at copying some example, rather than an invention or radical adaptation?
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 07-09-2018
So it looks like these workshops had a number of set examples and adapted those each time to suit their particular purpose. Here's another example of the "wedding" stock composition from a "Trojan War" manuscript by the Workshop of 1418. It appears to be about Paris, but I'm not certain which precise scene it's supposed to depict:
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RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - -JKP- - 07-09-2018
Looks like there are some pig-dog sheep in that picture too.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 10-09-2018
I've been digging deeper into the Alsace connection and the Willehalm illustrative tradition. Too many images and links for forum so I put it in a blog post: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - ReneZ - 11-09-2018
The topic is now appearing in several different places, and inevitably, discussions will be going on in parallel.
I see some very interesting and credible things in it, but also some more speculative and hasty considerations.
For me, it is completely convincing that the crossed arms are intentional, and derive from existing illustrations related to courtly love/marriage and the exchange of rings.
It is also right to search for possible precedents of this, but this cannot be done in just a couple of days.
One important question for the Voynch MS is whether the zodiac cycle as a whole was copied from one source MS, or it was put together from different sources. I daresay that this question cannot be answered yet, and it should be kept open. It would be dangerous to make assumptions about it, and use these assumptions to direct the search for precedents. The Voynich MS draughtsman may have been drawing from memory, combining things he had seen in different places. For the jaguarundi scorpio, there has not yet been any close precedent.
I find the possible precedent of the Hagenau workshop(s) far less convincing.
Of course, a priori, there is nothing against them. They do not create any inconsistency with what has been observed before, related to place or time. However, as far as I have seen:
- they didn't actually create new illustration types, just copied existing ones, with slight modifications. As such, one should also try to find their precedents.
- I have not seen one image of a crossed-arms couple in their output (maybe I overlooked it). This is the key feature that should be relevant.
The fact that there are some images with similar clothing and similar colours cannot be sufficient, because this is likely to be found throughout central Europe during this time.
A more general search is needed, and Marco already found an interesting example in another thread.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 11-09-2018
Yes you are right, Rene, I also noticed that the two threads are confusing, and this one has run its course. I'll lock it so discussion can be focused in the crossed arms thread.