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+--- Thread: Gemini from wedding imagery (/thread-2463.html)
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Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 02-09-2018
I summarized my thoughts and findings about this matter in a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but it's easier to discuss on the forum. In the blog I argue that the VM Gemini find their closest parallels in images of medieval weddings/betrothals.
The two best images I found so far are the following:
An image from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. "Hartlieb, Johannes: Das buoch Ouidy von der liebe zu erwerben. auch die liebe zeuerschmehen", Augsburg, 1482. It is the best parallel for the pose and reveals that we are looking at two simultaneous wedding rituals: the man clasps the woman's hand and at the same time puts a ring on her free hand, resulting in crossed arms.
![[Image: woodcut.jpg]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/woodcut.jpg)
The second is from a manuscript from Diebold Lauber's studio. It’s an illustration of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. work Wilhelm von Orlens.
![[Image: clothes.jpg]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/clothes.jpg)
I will eat a turban if the man in this image is not somehow related to the VM Gemini.
![[Image: laced.jpg]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/laced.jpg)
Now I don't know yet where to look next. There are tons of manuscripts which use the same type of imagery, but it will take time and effort to find them and go through them. Any ideas?
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 02-09-2018
In my post I dismissed the earlier (1420) manuscript of the Wilhelm von Orlens story, but this may not be entirely justified. Compare:
This image does not feature the turban or the proper pose with a woman, but it does show some remarkable parallels in the dress. Also, it has a similar quirk in the perspective, making the man look smaller.
If we hypothesize that all three images are related, we could say that:
- VM and Lauber's Wilhelm retain turban, head, pose, shoelaces.
- VM and 1420 Wilhelm retain green dress - although sleeves are the same in VM and Lauber's Wilhelm.
- VM and 1420 Wilhelm suffer from perspective problem, although the VM shortens the man's legs significantly.
- VM and 1420 Wilhelm have blush.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Emma May Smith - 02-09-2018
Very interesting.
I guess your task now is to find other examples of this pose (or a related wedding pose) used for Gemini. It should give us a very strong point of origin.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Anton - 02-09-2018
The green hat is nice. Notice the charactestic (?) wide sleeves of the woman's dress. Was this kind of sleeves characteristic for dresses of certain people?
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - -JKP- - 02-09-2018
(02-09-2018, 10:02 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The green hat is nice. Notice the charactestic (?) wide sleeves of the woman's dress. Was this kind of sleeves characteristic for dresses of certain people?
I looked into the sleeves a few years ago and usually the more fabric, the richer the person wearing it. So the long sleeves were often associated with nobility. The VMS sleeves are particularly important, because they have dagged edges (extra lace and embellishments were also associated with wealth and the upper classes, lace was handmade and very expensive). Fancy sleeves with scalloped or laced edges were less often drawn in zodiac imagery (the laces on the boots are also not common in zodiac imagery).
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 02-09-2018
Emma, as JKP is also getting at, these findings add to the likelihood that the VM Zodiac series came from outside the usual sources. We have some examples of the wedding pose crossing over into constellation imagery, but as the evidence stands now I'd say the scale is tipped in favor of a wedding or "courtly love" image being introduced into the VM sequence.
JKP, I share your thoughts about the image showing wealth. It's really just one or two tiers below royal wedding.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - ReneZ - 03-09-2018
In an unpublished report, in 2014 a curator of the Morgan library was asked to state an opinion about the costumes in the MS. He stated that this is usually a good indicator, because MS illustrations would represent the actual habits, and not those of more than 20 years in the past (or future
).He pointed to 1420, but I don't know on which pages this was based.
The wide sleeves also seen with Virgo seem quite characteristic to me, and I remember a blog entry about this a few years ago.
As an avenue of attack, this seems to be as good as any.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - Koen G - 03-09-2018
This probably means that for Lauber's later version, the outdated dress was put under a red overcoat.
I won't have time today, but it may be worth checking whether the "workshop of 1420" used the type of hat shared by the male Gemini and Lauber in any of its surviving manuscripts.
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - ReneZ - 03-09-2018
There are numerous manuscripts of the "1418 Werkstatt" among the German Heidelberg manuscripts. I do not remember having seen much of this "1420 Werkstatt" but I understand that it was also in Elsass.
In general, I do not see such a workshop as a likely origin for the Voynich MS, but I understand that this is not your point. The handwriting in the Voynich MS marginalia also does not match any Alsatian MS I have seen.
It could be someone close to it, or someone who had one of these manuscripts in his collection (or someone else's collection to which he had access).
RE: Gemini from wedding imagery - -JKP- - 03-09-2018
When I was looking into the Lauber studio and its forerunners, I did so because I was hoping to uncover some information about familial or business-based connections. It was the similarities in palette, some of the drawing style, and some of the critters and ponds that provoked my interest.
The people who commissioned works from studios generally had money and those who were relatives of people in the studios sometimes had access to materials (parchment, quills, etc.).
The VMS does not have the look-and-feel of a workshop-created manuscript but it DOES have the look-and-feel of someone who understood the basics of creating one and ACCESS to materials, in fact, good materials (the "map" foldout being of particular importance). This knowledge of how to put together a manuscript, without quite having professional level skills, is why I thought it might be an associate or relative of someone who owned or worked in a workshop rather than an actual workshop. Or perhaps even someone who might have considered commissioning something and then, in the end, created it themselves, but used something purchased from the workshop, or ideas they saw while manuscripts were being created, to guide them as to how to put it together.
But... information on the workshops themselves and the people who worked in them is scanty. The information on those who commissioned the works is scanty too although there is a bit.
....
Diepolt/Diebolt Lauber was a handwriting tutor. He had awful handwriting (I think most Gothic cursive handwriting is awful and his wasn't much better than average), but he was an eager businessman and advertised his services widely, so not all his income came from the workshop. But the fact that he was a handwriting tutor was another important piece of information that caught my attention because being a tutor gave one access to noble houses, and thus connections within the upper classes, and perhaps one of those families (or some of his students), had an interest in what he was creating in his studio. The Schilling side of the family probably had the same kinds of connections.
Whoever created the VMS had enough free time to do it. I think it was more likely created for personal use (or to pass on to one's children/heirs) rather than for someone with an interest in buying it. I could be wrong (completely wrong), I'm only going on subjective impressions. What I do know is that very few people in the middle ages had free time other than the upper classes or those that produced the more costly products (e.g., gold- and silverware and possibly manuscripts) on their behalf, so the VMS was more likely produced by someone who was a little higher, rather than lower, on the social scale (this might seem obvious, but still needs to be verified by facts).
..
One aspect of the manuscript that seems to support this is the small-plants section. Not only is this time-consuming work, but very few people had ever seen such beautiful "spice jars" (or whatever the containers represent). This level of craftsmanship was definitely restricted to more wealthy individuals and the VMS containers surpass even some of the best that were available at the time (I spent considerable time researching this). The person who drew them either had an extraordinary imagination, or had seen the belongings of some of the highest levels of society.