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+--- Thread: [split] Commissioned or not? (/thread-2446.html)
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - Koen G - 31-07-2018
The hands in the MS are more complex than A vs B, but does the evidence really point towards one individual sliding from one end towards the other? It's not impossible, but I think the belief in a single author who did the whole thing might weigh on your judgement there. If there are two or more distinct hands in a MS, wouldn't the majority of cases be attributed to two or more writers?
About corrections: it's important to understand how mistakes were made. Scribing was a tedious process - especially copying or transcribing as in your example. The mere mechanic nature of the activity would cause errors like skipping a piece of a line or one or more complete lines. For example, it happens a lot that a few lines are omitted because the copyist's eye skipped to a lower line starting with the same word.
Corrections would be present if the scribe understood the text and was able to spot his mistake easily when rereading. A lack of corrections might just mean that the scribes were unable to understand what they were copying.
Or a neutral explanation, maybe they didn't care enough to correct every tiny mistake. Or maybe they took great care not to make any.
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - -JKP- - 01-08-2018
There are definitely multiple scribes.
Ever since I noticed the different hands, I've perceived the VMS as a group project. There might be a mastermind, but a certain amount of cooperation existed.
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - Helmut Winkler - 01-08-2018
@ davidjackson
You are stating the obvious, only there is no Voynichese
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - ReneZ - 01-08-2018
Prescott Currier was adamant that there were (at least) two scribes, but alternative opinions have also been presented, supported by a logical explanation. The argumentation of Howard Carter was already presented here some time ago. I don't think that one can be certain either way.
One of Currier's main arguments was that the variation between two languages A and B, and two hands 1 and 2 coincide exactly. This, however, does not stand up to a more detailed analysis.
There is a transition from from A to B language which occurs among others in the course of the zodiac section.
Hand 2 is most conspicuous in the cramped and slanted writing in Herbal-B, but other B language pages are not slanted (or hardly).
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - davidjackson - 01-08-2018
@Helmut Winkler
Quote: You are stating the obvious, only there is no VoynicheseI always use "Voynichese" as a generic catch-all term which includes possibilities such as a code, cipher, or personal shorthand. Even if it is Latin with shorthand, this variant will forever more be known as Voynichese.
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - Helmut Winkler - 01-08-2018
(01-08-2018, 08:31 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Helmut Winkler
Quote: You are stating the obvious, only there is no VoynicheseI always use "Voynichese" as a generic catch-all term which includes possibilities such as a code, cipher, or personal shorthand. Even if it is Latin with shorthand, this variant will forever more be known as Voynichese.
All right, I agree.
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - -JKP- - 01-08-2018
You don't have to look at Curriers A and B to know there is more than one hand. The slant changes, the letterforms change, the spacing changes, the pressure changes.
Some people have variable scripts, some change their hand over time or because of fatigue, but the changes one sees in the VMS do not look like these kinds of changes.
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - Torsten - 01-08-2018
(31-07-2018, 11:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Corrections would be present if the scribe understood the text and was able to spot his mistake easily when rereading. A lack of corrections might just mean that the scribes were unable to understand what they were copying.
Or a neutral explanation, maybe they didn't care enough to correct every tiny mistake. Or maybe they took great care not to make any.
One feature of the glyphs used in the VMS is, that in many cases one additional quill stroke is enough the change one glyph into another one. For instance one additional quill stroke would be enough to change a glyph e into a s or a glyph ch into a sh. Another possibility is therefore that it was not necessary to delete something to correct a mistake. Maybe it was enough to change one glyph into another one. In this case we would need to search for changed glyphs or words. See for instance the sequence shar aiip in the first line of page f111r. To me it seems that a sequence char aiin or char aii was changed into Shar aiip here.
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - -JKP- - 01-08-2018
(31-07-2018, 11:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Or a neutral explanation, maybe they didn't care enough to correct every tiny mistake. Or maybe they took great care not to make any.
There are lots of mistakes. There are many places where something has been over-written to change the shape. It's pretty clean text but far from perfect.
RE: [split] Commissioned or not? - VViews - 02-08-2018
I agree with all of JKP's points in the last few posts here.
The fact that there may have been two, or even three "scribes" does not, in my view, constitute an argument for this being commissioned work.
I guess, if one were to argue that the Voynich was commissioned, one would have to hunt for evidence that supported that claim. I don't see any.
If we could observe the presence of a colophon for example, that might be one such indication. But there is none in the Voynich.
It was obviously created by people who were familiar with scribal practices (although not excellent at them), but again, this doesn't mean that they were commissioned to do it.