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+--- Thread: Folio numbers (/thread-2434.html)
Folio numbers - nablator - 18-07-2018
I thought it would be useful to have a conversion table here between the sequential images numbers on the Beinecke website
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and the usual folio numbers. Maybe on the folio browser too. Looking at the combo box now, it seems some numbers are off. (?)
1 [Front cover]
2 [Inside front cover]
3 1r
4 1v
5 2r
6 2v
7 3r
8 3v
9 4r
10 4v
11 5r
12 5v
13 6r
14 6v
15 7r
16 7v
17 8r
18 8v
19 9r
20 9v
21 10r
22 10v
23 11r
24 11v
25 13r
26 13v
27 14r
28 14v
29 15r
30 15v
31 16r
32 16v
33 17r
34 17v
35 18r
36 18v
37 19r
38 19v
39 20r
40 20v
41 21r
42 21v
43 22r
44 22v
45 23r
46 23v
47 24r
48 24v
49 25r
50 25v
51 26r
52 26v
53 27r
54 27v
55 28r
56 28v
57 29r
58 29v
59 30r
60 30v
61 31r
62 31v
63 32r
64 32v
65 33r
66 33v
67 34r
68 34v
69 35r
70 35v
71 36r
72 36v
73 37r
74 37v
75 38r
76 38v
77 39r
78 39v
79 40r
80 40v
81 41r
82 41v
83 42r
84 42v
85 43r
86 43v
87 44r
88 44v
89 45r
90 45v
91 46r
92 46v
93 47r
94 47v
95 48r
96 48v
97 49r
98 49v
99 50r
100 50v
101 51r
102 51v
103 52r
104 52v
105 53r
106 53v
107 54r
108 54v
109 55r
110 55v
111 56r
112 56v
113 57r
114 57v
115 58r
116 58v
117 65r
118 65v
119 66r
120 66v
121 67r1
121 67r2
122 67v2
122 67v1
123 68r1
123 68r2
123 68r3
124 68v3
124 68v2
124 68v1
125 69r
126 69v
126 70r1
126 70r2
127 70v2
128 70v1
129 71r
130 71v
130 72r1
130 72r2
130 72r3
131 72v3
131 72v2
132 72v1
133 73r
134 73v
135 75r
136 75v
137 76r
138 76v
139 77r
140 77v
141 78r
142 78v
143 79r
144 79v
145 80r
146 80v
147 81r
148 81v
149 82r
150 82v
151 83r
152 83v
153 84r
154 84v
155 85r1
156 85r2
156 86v4
156 86v6
157 86v5
157 86v3
158 Rosettes foldout
159 87r
160 87v
161 88r
162 88v
162 89r1
162 89r2
163 89v2
164 89v1
164 90r1
164 90r2
165 90v2
166 90v1
167 93r
168 93v
169 94r
170 94v
170 95r1
170 95r2
171 95v2
172 95v1
173 96r
174 96v
175 99r
176 99v
177 100r
178 100v
178 101r1
178 101r2
179 101v2
180 101v1
180 102r1
180 102r2
181 102v2
182 102v1
183 103r
184 103v
185 104r
186 104v
187 105r
188 105v
189 106r
190 106v
191 107r
192 107v
193 108r
194 108v
195 111r
196 111v
197 112r
198 112v
199 113r
200 113v
201 114r
202 114v
203 115r
204 115v
205 116r
206 116v
207 [Back flyleaf recto]
208 [Back flyleaf verso-inside back cover]
209 [Head]
210 [Tail]
211 [Fore-edge]
212 [Spine]
213 [Back cover]
RE: Folio numbers - nablator - 18-07-2018
(18-07-2018, 04:27 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Looking at the combo box now, it seems some numbers are off. (?)In left to right order:
f67v1-2 should be f67v2-1
f68v2-3 should be f68r2-3
f68v1 should be f68v3-1
f69v-70r2 should be f69v,70r1-2
f71v-r3 should be f71v,72r1-3
f72v2-3 should be f72v3-2
f85r2-f86v6 should be f85r2,86v4,6
f85v3-5 should be f85v5,3
f86-ins-ros should be f85-86 rosettes
f88v-r2 should be f88v,89r1-2
f89v1-90r2 should be f89v1,90r1-2
f94v-95r2 should be f94v,95r1-2
f100v-101r2 should be f100v,101r1-2
f101v1-102r2 should be f101v1,102r1-2
RE: Folio numbers - Wladimir D - 19-07-2018
I copied high-definition scans on my laptop from here .. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In advance I apologize for plagiarism, I do not remember where I downloaded the following table.
[font=Courier New]f1r 1006076
[/font]
f1v 1006077
f2r 1006078
f2v 1006079
f3r 1006080
f3v 1006081
f4r 1006082
f4v 1006083
f5r 1006084
f5v 1006085
f6r 1006086
f6v 1006087
f7r 1006088
f7v 1006089
f8r 1006090
f8v 1006091
f9r 1006092
f9v 1006093
f10r 1006094
f10v 1006095
f11r 1006096
f11v 1006097
f13r 1006098
f13v 1006099
f14r 1006100
f14v 1006101
f15r 1006102
f15v 1006103
f16r 1006104
f16v 1006105
f17r 1006106
f17v 1006107
f18r 1006108
f18v 1006109
f19r 1006110
f19v 1006111
f20r 1006112
f20v 1006113
f21r 1006114
f21v 1006115
f22r 1006116
f22v 1006117
f23r 1006118
f23v 1006119
f24r 1006120
f24v 1006121
f25r 1006122
f25v 1006123
f26r 1006124
f26v 1006125
f27r 1006126
f27v 1006127
f28r 1006128
f28v 1006129
f29r 1006130
f29v 1006131
f30r 1006132
f30v 1006133
f31r 1006134
f31v 1006135
f32r 1006136
f32v 1006137
f33r 1006138
f33v 1006139
f34r 1006140
f34v 1006141
f35r 1006142
f35v 1006143
f36r 1006144
f36v 1006145
f37r 1006146
f37v 1006147
f38r 1006148
f38v 1006149
f39r 1006150
f39v 1006151
f40r 1006152
f40v 1006153
f41r 1006154
f41v 1006155
f42r 1006156
f42v 1006157
f43r 1006158
f43v 1006159
f44r 1006160
f44v 1006161
f45r 1006162
f45v 1006163
f46r 1006164
f46v 1006165
f47r 1006166
f47v 1006167
f48r 1006168
f48v 1006169
f49r 1006170
f49v 1006171
f50r 1006172
f50v 1006173
f51r 1006174
f51v 1006175
f52r 1006176
f52v 1006177
f53r 1006178
f53v 1006179
f54r 1006180
f54v 1006181
f55r 1006182
f55v 1006183
f56r 1006184
f56v 1006185
f57r 1006186
f57v 1006187
f58r 1006188
f58v 1006189
f65r 1006190
f65v 1006191
f66r 1006192
f66v 1006193
f67r1-2 1006194
f67v1-2 1006195
f68v2-3 1006196
f68v1 1006197
f69r 1006198
f69v-70r2 1006199
f70v2 1006200
f70v1 1006201
f71r 1006202
f71v-r3 1006203
f72v2-3 1006204
f72v1 1006205
f73r 1006206
f73v 1006207
f75r 1006208
f75v 1006209
f76r 1006210
f76v 1006211
f77r 1006212
f77v 1006213
f78r 1006214
f78v 1006215
f79r 1006216
f79v 1006217
f80r 1006218
f80v 1006219
f81r 1006220
f81v 1006221
f82r 1006222
f82v 1006223
f83r 1006224
f83v 1006225
f84r 1006226
f84v 1006227
f85r1 1006228
f85r2-f86v6 1006229
f86v3-5 1006230
f86-ins-ros 1006231
f87r 1006232
f88r 1037112
f88v-r2 1006233
f89v2 1006234
f89v1-90r2 1006235
f90v2 1006236
f90v1 1006237
f93r 1006238
f93v 1006239
f94r 1006240
f94v-95r2 1006241
f95v2 1006242
f95v1 1006243
f96r 1006244
f96v 1006245
f99r 1006246
f99v 1006247
f100r 1006248
f100v-101r2 1006249
f101v2 1006250
f101v1-102r2 1006251
f102v2 1006252
f102v1 1006253
f103r 1006254
f103v 1006255
f104r 1006256
f104v 1006257
f105r 1006258
f105v 1006259
f106r 1006260
f106v 1006261
f107r 1006262
f107v 1006263
f108r 1006264
f108v 1006265
f111r 1006266
f111v 1006267
f112r 1006268
f112v 1006269
f113r 1006270
f113v 1006271
f114r 1006272
f114v 1006273
f115r 1006274
f115v 1006275
f116r 1006276
f116v 1006277
[font=Courier New] [/font]
To clarifythe conventional (standard) numbering of folding pages, I use You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Folio numbers - ReneZ - 19-07-2018
This is a non-trivial issue.
For the identification of folio numbers, there is not a problem as it follows the old foliation (which may not be contemporary in the strict sense).
For the identification of recto and verso there is also not a problem, since this follows standard conventions.
(Both points taking into account that this is a western book. For Arabic or Hebrew books , and probably some others, this would be different).
The special case for the Voynich MS is the numbering of the foldout 'parts'.
This was consolidated by Jim Reeds in 1995 or so.
D'Imperio before him used the same method but did not describe all cases.
Anne Nill seems to be the one who introduced this, but also her notes on this are not complete.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has been summarised visually on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
Mapping the illustration to the folio and page numbers is done throughout the section that Wladimir already linked to.
Unfortunately, when the Beinecke first produced the web site with the new scans, they mislabeled the illustrations rather badly. (This was not done by a curator or conservator, but by public services).
This has been fixed, but one can still see the old problem on a web site with copies of the images:
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It doesn't take a long investigation to see that this cannot be correct.
Therefore, it is in principle possible that there are still some leftovers of this earlier mistake in parts of the Beinecke web resources, especially ones that weren't published officially.
RE: Folio numbers - nablator - 19-07-2018
(19-07-2018, 09:04 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Therefore, it is in principle possible that there are still some leftovers of this earlier mistake in parts of the Beinecke web resources, especially ones that weren't published officially.Yes, but I trust the folio numbers on you website were not taken from those leftovers.
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They match this layout: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The "corrected" version seems not to be used by anyone (?), so I suppose it was abandoned:
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RE: Folio numbers - ReneZ - 19-07-2018
The folio numbering is certainly correct.
When I visited the Beinecke in 1999 I double-checked the information from Jim with the original.
The only confusing point is the direction of some of the folds, and definitely these have changed
over the years.
When the Yale photo facsimile was prepared, the foliation, including the direction of the folds, was again
reviewed, and I adapted my drawings to be compatible with the facsimile, which should be considered
authoritative. They definitely used the original to finalise the drawings in the book.
RE: Folio numbers - ChenZheChina - 28-11-2018
(19-07-2018, 10:36 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
The only confusing point is the direction of some of the folds, and definitely these have changed
over the years.
...
Hi René. What do you mean by “the direction of some of the folds”? The folding directions of how foldouts were folded into quires?
Like this:
RE: Folio numbers - ReneZ - 28-11-2018
(28-11-2018, 07:22 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi René. What do you mean by “the direction of some of the folds”? The folding directions of how foldouts were folded into quires?
Like this:
Indeed. The folds are either 'mountain' or 'valley' folds. A first complete list was made by Jim Reeds when he visited the Beinecke library in the 1990's. From this, it could be concluded that the folio numbers were written on the pages while they were completely folded in. Due to the various different folding methods of some of the foldouts, as a result the folio number occasionally appears on the verso side.
However, already at that time it appeared that there was one exception to this rule, which could be explained if the fold had changed direction over time.
When the Yale facsimile book was prepared, this was revisited in detail, leading to an illustration of the quire layout on page 24. I updated my page at voynich.nu to make it consistent, and it was clear that there was at least one more change.
I remember that, when looking at the scans, there is at least one 'double fold', i.e. it could go either way.
RE: Folio numbers - ReneZ - 28-11-2018
This seems to be an example of a fold that could go both ways:
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RE: Folio numbers - ChenZheChina - 28-11-2018
(28-11-2018, 09:26 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This seems to be an example of a fold that could go both ways:
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Thanks. I see the folding between f101r1 and f101r2 seems to go both ways.
This is very interesting.
It seems that all foldings are folded toward the center of the quire at first folding. Outer foldings may be folded toward or away from the center, though.
Like this: