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+--- Thread: Is the archer a "foreigner"? (/thread-2398.html)
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - -JKP- - 10-01-2020
(10-01-2020, 12:24 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are numerous other manuscripts that have a crossbow archer for Sagittarius. Would any of these represent Wilhelm Tell?
Out of the 600 more-or-less complete zodiacs that I've collected (there are also some incomplete ones), only a dozen have crossbows. They range in date from c. 1280 to c. 1489 (for the ones that might have relevance to the VMS).
The zodiac series from c. 1489 is incomplete. It includes only Aquarius, Scorpio and Sagittarius (Capricorn is torn, you can only see the top of the horns). But it has a regular scorpion, not a lizardy-scorpion.
Even though it is incomplete, I am fairly sure the 1489 zodiac is in the same tradition as one from c. 1480, one from c. 1475, c. 1463, c. 1460, and c. 1450. Each of these has a regular scorpion and naked Castor and Pollux. In common with the VMS, they have a tongue-lion, no-hand Libra, and crossbow, but that's not enough to put them into the same group (other groups are more similar to the VMS and do not always have crossbows).
In other words, these crossbow zodiacs are similar to the VMS in some ways, but different in others and slightly more traditional. It appears to be a different branch of the crayfish and no-figure Libra subgroup and two of them can be recognized by Aquarius, who is dressed like a farmer (not naked) and sometimes has a wide-brimmed hat (an uncommon detail) or chaperon.
There is one crossbow zodiac with an affectionate couple, but it too has the traditional scorpion and Cancer is a crab, not a crayfish.
One of the closest matches to the VMS in terms of themes (affectionate couple, crayfish, leg-tail Leo, no-figure Libra, lizardy Scorpio) is a 13th century psalter from Magdeburg. I have posted this on my blog and included a dot on the HRE map. The drawings are quite primitive. The VMS is obviously not a direct copy of this. There is a similar Psalter from Magdeburg with a regular bow that is drawn a little better. A few decades later, someone in Augsburg (c. 1300) made what I'm fairly sure is a copy from the Magdeburg line (the Clarisia Psalter). I've also posted this on my blogs a few times. It has a regular bow.
So... this is why I say that the crossbow itself does not define the thematic content of a zodiac. Most of the crossbow zodiacs are like a semi-traditional branch. Within the subgroup that is more similar to the VMS, the kind of bow varies.
...
I don't have enough examples to know for absolutely sure, but I think the VMS thematic-line originated in northeastern France/Flanders and came into the Holy Roman Empire around the middle of the 13th century via Magdeburg or Switzerland. The crossbows start showing up in the early 1400s in Switzerland/Bavaria but this thematic line originated with regular bows (longbow, shortbow) and continued to have regular bows in some places while still retaining the other themes.
I can't remember if I posted this series from a 15th-century calender on my blog (I have WAY too many zodiacs to post all of them, and not all are relevant), it has a regular scorpion, but it's a pretty close match for the VMS archer's tunic and has writing in the circles around the figures, yet does not have a crossbow. Origin is not known but is thought to be Austria or Germany. Note the wide sleeves and pleats in the tunic and also a small goatee (no hat, though):
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - Tabaziclon - 30-01-2020
When I translated this scheme chromatog Russian. There was no mention of the Archer in the text. Women in a circle were engaged in offering gifts to the Gods, according to pagan traditions. The offerings were: Oats, Spelt, pilaf, stew, and many others. The tub is needed for folding gifts to the Gods.
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - Koen G - 30-01-2020
Tabaziclon, you are posting about your theory in unrelated threads. If you want to discuss your theory that's fine, but please stick to one thread (like this one: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ). Further off-topic posts will be deleted.
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - Tabaziclon - 02-02-2020
(30-01-2020, 02:53 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tabaziclon, you are posting about your theory in unrelated threads. If you want to discuss your theory that's fine, but please stick to one thread (like this one: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ). Further off-topic posts will be deleted.I fully agree, but this was a discussion about the Archer, and I translated this scheme, and I wanted to tell you that it is pointless to look for an Archer. It doesn't even appear in the text.
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - Anton - 02-02-2020
(02-02-2020, 10:39 AM)Tabaziclon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It doesn't even appear in the text.
This subforum is about imagery, not about the text.