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+--- Thread: Is the archer a "foreigner"? (/thread-2398.html)
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - Anton - 09-01-2020
How about this archer being the archer? Say, Wilhelm Tell.
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - -JKP- - 09-01-2020
I did suggest on the forum a couple of months back that the VMS archer might be Robin Hood (yes, he was known in the 15th century and had several popular predecessors that were essentially the same persona with other names, some of which were fictional, others that may have been based on real people), but that didn't get a response.
What made me wonder if the archer might be inspired by a real person or popular fictional person was some research I did on old bells before I knew about the VMS. It turned out that a high proportion of them were based on people in popular culture at the time, but their origins were gradually being forgotten over the decades or centuries.
SOMETHING motivated the creators of the VMS subgroup of zodiacs to diverge from the Aratus tradition. A small proportion of illustrators, originally in the northeast France/Flanders area (this is my opinion, based on my research so far), substituted the affectionate couple and the two-legged man/satyr for the naked Castor and Pollux (both male) and the centaur Sagittarius. This subgroup spread east and south over a period of a couple of centuries and morphed slightly but is still recognizable as a specific minority zodiac series.
Why did they break with tradition?
After pondering this question for several years... it dawned on me that like the bells, some of the zodiac characters might also have been inspired by popular culture (characters in books, or played by mummers, etc.). Which led me to wonder if the couple might be Romeo and Juliet or Tristan and Isolde (which also go back a long time before Shakespeare under a variety of names), or some other famous couple, and from there I further wondered if the archer might be Robin Hood (or other popular archers through time since archery tournaments were popular and sometimes drawn in the margins of manuscripts).
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - davidjackson - 09-01-2020
But then they wouldn't have used a crossbow.
The use of such a device suggests bringing modernity into the imagery, looking forwards not backwards.
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - Anton - 09-01-2020
Wilhelm Tell was a crossbowman
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - -JKP- - 10-01-2020
(09-01-2020, 08:11 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
But then they wouldn't have used a crossbow.
The use of such a device suggests bringing modernity into the imagery, looking forwards not backwards.
I think it's a mistake to focus too specifically on the crossbow. There's no way to know which details are important and which are at the whim of the illustrator unless you consider the OVERALL composition of the zodiac series. I gathered and studied almost 600 more-or-less complete zodiacs (almost 7200 drawings, almost all of them in color, plus about 80 incomplete zodiacs) to try to answer this question. I wanted to know WHICH details are the KEY details (and which ones can vary without changing the overall theme).
My research suggests the two-legged archer is the KEY part, regardless of the style of bow. The VMS illustrator MAY have copied a crossbowman, but is just as likely to have substituted the crossbow (from any number of sources). So we can't know for sure if the exemplar was a zodiac crossbow. But there IS a high probability that the VMS illustrator copied a human or human-like Sagittarius rather than a centaur. This is one of the patterns that identifies the VMS zodiac subgroup.
I've been trying to convey this on my zodiac blogs, but maybe I'm not doing a good enough job of it. I'll try to distill it down...
I spent years studying HOW MUCH individual illustrators varied drawings (e.g., mirroring them or changing the colors or style of figures) while still staying true to the exemplar. There are examples where everything is thematically identical, but each figure is drawn in its own way.
My research indicates that it's the distinction between centaur and human-like figure that is important, TOGETHER WITH which style of drawing was chosen for Libra, Cancer, and Gemini (also Capricorn as goat rather than as goat-fish but unfortunately the VMS doesn't include Capricorn). There are KEY themes and KEY details and the rest tends to vary with the illustrator. The style of bow can vary while still staying true to the overall thematic content.
This subgroup diverges significantly from the much-more-common Aratus tradition and is small percentage-wise. I think this is important. Whoever created the VMS zodiac drawings was probably not a conservative/traditionalist.
So, taking a bit of a leap at this point (I don't have research to back up this part, it's just an idea), IF the VMS illustrator were in the theater-going/tournament-going crowd or had access to a library with stories like Tristan and Isolde, Roman de la Rose, etc., then perhaps they chose popular characters as models for Gemini and Sagittarius.
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - -JKP- - 10-01-2020
(09-01-2020, 10:46 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wilhelm Tell was a crossbowman
I rather like this idea. It fits many of the circumstances (time period, location, folk-hero status, crossbow), etc., so I looked around, but found some things that complicate the picture (as usual, it never is as straightforward as one would hope). This article in particular caught my attention:
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Now... it doesn't have to be a real person to be a popular folk-hero, or the subject of plays and stories, but I couldn't find any old images of him (at least not yet).
Okay, so here is a loooooong string of "what ifs" (assumptions)... what if the VMS originated in Switzerland... what if the Wilhelm Tell story was widely accepted by the early 15th century... what if the VMS Sagittarius zodiac were copied from a manuscript with a longbow or a shortbow... if the author were Swiss, the odds that they would substitute a crossbow would be rather high even if the exemplar had another kind of bow (the crossbow is the symbol of Swiss exports to this day). If they were French or German, the kind of bow probably wouldn't matter as much because it's not their symbol of national pride. The exemplar MIGHT be a crossbow, but under these circumstances, it wouldn't have to be in order to inspire the use of a crossbow.
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - -JKP- - 10-01-2020
As far as I can tell, William Tell didn't achieve folk-hero status until the very late 15th century or 16th century.
The legend of Robin Hood appears to have been disseminated at an earlier date:
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RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - ReneZ - 10-01-2020
There are numerous other manuscripts that have a crossbow archer for Sagittarius. Would any of these represent Wilhelm Tell?
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - Koen G - 10-01-2020
I think there are a few general types for archers. These can surely be influenced by popular figures, but they exist in a broader cultural context. In the past I (and others before me) have argued that our crossbowman is the type of the dandy huntsman. More fabric than necessary (or practical), jolly disposition, relaxed stance... I personally preferred parallels in hunting tapestries and the Livre de Chasse.
The figure comes from the same social circles as the Zodiac women, who wear expensive silk dresses. There might be some story connecting them, but we shouldn't forget that these types were very popular in early 15th century Zidiac figures and general illustrations.
Essentially what we're looking at is the typical courtly style of the early 15th century international gothic.
When I made this thread I was fascinated by a returning figure in these kinds of hunting scenes: the guy with baggy sleeves and a little beard. Several of them can be in one scene, and they are often appear subordinate to the more important nobles. They can often be seen aiming at a beast, handling a downed prey and so on..
RE: Is the archer a "foreigner"? - Anton - 10-01-2020
(10-01-2020, 09:28 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As far as I can tell, William Tell didn't achieve folk-hero status until the very late 15th century or 16th century.
That's not immediately evident. The first known written report is the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., dated 1474, and since it's a compilation, this in fact suggests Wilhelm Tell (no matter was he a real person or not) having been a relatively widespread heroic motif already (to be included in the compilation along with the Rutli oath).
Yet I have found no early depictions of him neither.
Quote:There are numerous other manuscripts that have a crossbow archer for Sagittarius. Would any of these represent Wilhelm Tell?
Not necessarily, especially those not Swiss, but as I said my idea is that rather than representing a "general" crossbowman, this might be a personification important for the time and place. The Voynich Manuscript imagery manifests, in many ways, its great attention to tiny details, and, as such, certain disinclination to generalization. That's the point.