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+--- Thread: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? (/thread-2394.html)
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - MarcoP - 14-06-2018
(14-06-2018, 12:35 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As far as I know, all Oresme's work has been transcribed and translated.
These books are quite expensive, that is why you can't find it online.
I have them sitting on the bookshelf, these are 1000+ pages of reading and very technical.
Thank you, David! I know these books are not accessible online, but with a reference I can go and check in libraries. The text I am talking about is "Quaestiones super libros Meteororum". I have only found references to this old edition of only part of one of the four sections of this work:
Questiones super quatuor libros meteororum, in SC McCluskey, ed, Nicole Oresme on Light, Color and the Rainbow: An Edition and Translation, with introduction and critical notes, of Part of Book Three of his Questiones super quatuor libros meteororum (PhD dissertation, University of Wisconsin, 1974)
This is mentioned on the Oresme wikipedia page, but it also is the only reference I have seen in books.
If you could also dig out references to other manuscripts of that work, that would be appreciated too.
Of course, I don't intend to read the whole work, but a transcription would allow me to understand the abbreviations used in Sang. 839.
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - DONJCH - 14-06-2018
This is a bit late in the thread due to technical issues but here is a cipher from 1441 showing, marked in red, what looks like an almost full size EVA-k gallows. There is also a cis underneath it and a ris further up the page. (Meister P36)
So somebody bang in the prime VMS timeframe made a clear distinction between these 3 forms.
This also may illustrate why I think ris looks like a diminutive squashed insect by comparison.
No offence meant to Marco's great post, but plenty to the ugly Gothic script in Oresme!
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 14-06-2018
All scribes in the VMS time frame made a distinction between ris/cis/tis. It was one of the most common abbreviations, almost as common as the EVA-y shape for con-/com-/-us/-um. They didn't all use it (although many did), but anyone trained professionally would have known it.
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - DONJCH - 14-06-2018
(14-06-2018, 05:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All scribes in the VMS time frame made a distinction between ris/cis/tis. It was one of the most common abbreviations, almost as common as the EVA-y shape for con-/com-/-us/-um. They didn't all use it (although many did), but anyone trained professionally would have known it.
Are you saying the one I called Eva-k is tis? From the handwritten examples in the latest post on your website, sometimes it was hard to tell which was which. The differences were often quite subtle. In other words I misidentified and this diagram contains only ris/cis/tis?
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 14-06-2018
(14-06-2018, 06:03 PM)DONJCH Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(14-06-2018, 05:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All scribes in the VMS time frame made a distinction between ris/cis/tis. It was one of the most common abbreviations, almost as common as the EVA-y shape for con-/com-/-us/-um. They didn't all use it (although many did), but anyone trained professionally would have known it.
Are you saying the one I called Eva-k is tis? From the handwritten examples in the latest post on your website, sometimes it was hard to tell which was which. The differences were often quite subtle. In other words I misidentified and this diagram contains only ris/cis/tis?
The short ones that look like EVA-m (and its variants) are usually ris/tis/cis. The tall one (that looks like EVA-k) is usually "Item" but it depends on whether the scribe used mostly lowercase or a combination of lower and uppercase letters. The "is" abbreviation (loop plus tail) could be added to anything.
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 14-06-2018
I can't spend more than a few minutes on something like this during the workday, and it's hard to fit them on one page, so this is only a very quick summary of some of the most common abbreviations used in Cod. Sang. 839. The scribe seems to apply them fairly consistently.
![[Image: TipsonAbbreviations.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/TipsonAbbreviations.png)
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 14-06-2018
The diplomatic ciphers used thousands of characters. Even a single cipher sometimes used a couple of hundred characters, so they got their ideas wherever they could find them.
They used letters, numbers, Latin, Greek, math symbols, astrological symbols, kabbalistic symbols, and many invented shapes.
I have marked the ones that are specifically borrowed from Latin scribal conventions:
![[Image: DiplomaticCiphers.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/DiplomaticCiphers.png)
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - Emma May Smith - 14-06-2018
(14-06-2018, 07:14 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The diplomatic ciphers used thousands of characters. Even a single cipher sometimes used a couple of hundred characters, so they got their ideas wherever they could find them.
They used letters, numbers, Latin, Greek, math symbols, astrological symbols, kabbalistic symbols, and many invented shapes.
I think this is of the highest importance when considering the origin of the Voynich script.
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 14-06-2018
The diplomatic ciphers do not have any positional characteristics. They are substitution codes, so they follow natural-language patterns.
The VMS glyphs do have positional characteristics and they are strongly similar to where these shapes are found in Latin scribal conventions. In Latin EVA-y and EVA-m are frequently at the ends of words (as they are in the VMS), and EVA-y is sometimes at the beginnings of words (as in the VMS).
In Latin, the cr/ct/er/ee/cc ligature is more flexible and can move around within a word, it isn't primarily at the end (or the beginning), and this is also true of the bench chars (EVA-ch/EVA-sh) in the VMS.
In Latin, EVA-s and EVA-r can be syllables but they can also be words and thus can stand alone. This is also true in the VMS.
The VMS glyphs are not just morphologically similar to Latin scribal conventions, they are positionally similar. This is why I've been insisting that they are based on Latin. Shapes can be coincidentally similar, but it's not a coincidence when those shapes fall in the same positions within tokens as one would expect to find them in languages using Latin conventions (which is most western languages).
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - Emma May Smith - 14-06-2018
I think your claims require a thread of their own.