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+--- Thread: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? (/thread-2394.html)
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - geoffreycaveney - 05-05-2021
Since Koen referred to this thread in his recent post in my Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400 thread, I will revive this thread with a question:
Take a look at the image of the manuscript text on the left hand side of English historian Ian Mortimer's personal website:
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There I see letterforms that to my eyes appear to resemble such Voynich characters as EVA [d] and even EVA [in] !
I wonder if it is possible to determine the origin of the manuscript that was used as the basis for this image, and to investigate it more carefully and in more depth and detail.
Geoffrey
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 05-05-2021
Many of the VMS characters are normal characters from Latin scribal conventions (alphabet + ligatures + abbreviations).
These characters are common in languages that use Latin conventions:
a c e d g m ch h i k n o r s u y
and if you include numerals l q d
the x also occurs but is less common.
The char at the end of the first row y is not a "g", it is the abbreviation symbol for "-us" which is typically used at the ends of words.
The primary ones that are not common to languages that use Latin characters are the benched gallows chars. But they did use benches, in the sense of running long strokes horizontally through letters. If the word has ascenders and a long macron is used, it will sometimes bench the ascender.
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - geoffreycaveney - 06-05-2021
(05-05-2021, 11:58 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many of the VMS characters are normal characters from Latin scribal conventions (alphabet + ligatures + abbreviations).
These characters are common in languages that use Latin conventions:
a c e d g m ch h i k n o r s u y
and if you include numerals l q d
the x also occurs but is less common.
The char at the end of the first row y is not a "g", it is the abbreviation symbol for "-us" which is typically used at the ends of words.
We need to get some grant money for JKP to take a sabbatical from his day job for a year and finally finish writing up all of his enormous amount of information about medieval manuscripts and scripts and letterforms.
I also note that according to my understanding, while the "-us" suffix is the most common use of the medieval Latin scribal abbreviation symbol that resembles EVA [y], it may also be used to represent Latin "cum" ("with") or the prefix "con-" (also meaning "with").
Geoffrey
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 06-05-2021
Yes, when y is used at the beginnings of words, it is con, com and its homonyms (and it can also stand alone for these).
- Some scribes used y with almost equal frequency beginning and end.
- Some scribes only used it at the end.
- Some used it often at the end and sometimes at the beginning (the same general pattern as the VMS position of the glyph).
- Some scribes used it at the end and used the reverse-c (which is also in the VMS) at the beginning.
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - geoffreycaveney - 06-05-2021
(06-05-2021, 12:52 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, when y is used at the beginnings of words, it is con, com and its homonyms (and it can also stand alone for these).
I have hundreds of examples of most of these, although the reverse-c was becoming less common by the early 15th century.
- Some scribes used y with almost equal frequency beginning and end.
- Some scribes only used it at the end.
- Some used it often at the end and sometimes at the beginning (the same general pattern as the VMS position of the glyph).
- Some scribes used it at the end and used the reverse-c (which is also in the VMS) at the beginning.
Thank you for confirming all of this information, JKP.
For the record, in my Yorkist English theory (see the Middle English theory thread for 100 posts worth of details) I read this character (EVA [y] or Currier [9]) as "K", which can represent "k", "hard c", "hard g", "gh", "ng", or "-ing". I believe that its use to mean "cum", "com-", "con-", etc., was the inspiration for this use of the character. It is used so frequently, according to my theory, because "K" is the final letter of "YORK". I also note that according to my theory, words can be written either forwards or backwards, so this will scramble the statistical frequency of the use of such a character at the "beginning" or "end" of words. The motivation would have been to make words appear with this "K" character in word-final position as often as possible, in order to match the word-final "K" in "YORK".
Geoffrey
RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - Juan_Sali - 27-06-2023
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Like EVA - t , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I dont understand the meaning of it, too shorthanded text for me:
Like EVA - x, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., they are used as A: