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Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - Printable Version

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RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - Davidsch - 27-06-2018

I've found that for the medieval mind, there is no such thing as black or white, zero or one:  in the medieval setting, there exists logical thinking, but that does not mean they will apply that always and use it consistent.  This is important in discussions and finding conclusions on medieval work.

RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - DONJCH - 27-06-2018

(27-06-2018, 03:40 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.While Voynichese EVA:g g does look like the Latin abbreviation for -dis, it appears to  be drawn differently.



The Latin abbreviation, seems to start with a d. The bottom loop appears to be written counter-clockwise. 

The Vonich glyph seems to start with a c, that becomes an s and finally g. The bottom loops is often open and appears to have been written clockwise. Is the Latin abbreviation ever written like this?

Marco, Yes exactly.

This is the sort of consideration that makes me skeptical.

The same could be said of the Eva-f analogue you guys were looking at in the other gallows thread - I was going to say Bingo, smoking gun,... but on closer inspection I think the loop was done in the opposite direction to that in the VMS and crossed the ascender at the top of the main "p-like" loop rather than at the bottom as in the VMS,

Is it just a lazy scribe or maybe stubborn and a bit innovative perhaps?

RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 27-06-2018

Depending on the scribe, -cis and -dis can look the same or very similar, (or quite different if it's a scribe who puts a hook on the loop of the "d").

The letter "d" in medieval script was extremely variable, and the stroke order varied quite a bit also, not only from scribe to scribe, but sometimes also by the same scribe.

RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - MarcoP - 27-06-2018

(27-06-2018, 04:27 PM)DONJCH Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco, Yes exactly.

This is the sort of consideration that makes me skeptical.

The same could be said of the Eva-f analogue you guys were looking at in the other gallows thread - I was going to say Bingo, smoking gun,... but on closer inspection I think the loop was done in the opposite direction to that in the VMS and crossed the ascender at the top of the main "p-like" loop rather than at the bottom as in the VMS,

Is it just a lazy scribe or maybe stubborn and a bit innovative perhaps?

It's puzzling indeed. Since Voynichese appears to be a newly invented alphabet, it seems reasonable to assume that whoever invented it was not afraid of innovating. It also seems reasonable to think that the author was inspired by contemporary scripts (this apparently happened a lot in other invented alphabets, i.e. ciphers).
But what exactly are you skeptical about? What is your opinion at the current state of this discussion?

RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - Koen G - 30-06-2018

I don't remember if this one was shared already, an explosion of loops:

[Image: conraddiploma2.JPG]

11th century German Imperial script

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Edit: not sure if image works? If not, click link above.

RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 01-07-2018

(30-06-2018, 10:32 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't remember if this one was shared already, an explosion of loops:

[Image: conraddiploma2.JPG]

11th century German Imperial script

...

Koen, you've posted an interesting example because it includes both meaningful loops and unmeaningful loops (in the linguistic sense), a concept that is probably important in sorting out VMS glyphs.

For example,

  • the two half-loops (looks like double-cee) are frequently used in early- and mid-medieval manuscripts to indicate "u" (the "qu" combination),
  • the long-ess is merely embellished in many places (the loops are not abbreviations),
  • the line and loops on "abbas" indicate abbreviations (usually these loops represent "abbatis" and are drawn in many different ways and sometimes resemble benched gallows),
  • the st ligature commonly had a loop but here has multiple loops (embellishments, not linguistically meaningful),
  • the fourth word on the first line includes the "squiggle" apostrophe in one of its earlier forms. Most of the time it represents er/re/ir/er/r, so it is lingistically meaningful. In the early medieval texts, it frequently resembles the curvy version of Indic-Arabic numeral 1, as it almost does here. In later texts, the shape became more like a lightening bolt and less like a one, and
  • the horizontally looping figure 8 shapes (the joined ones) are meaningful except when used to embellish the long-s (and some of the other long ascenders). They are a fancy version of the macron (horizontal-bar apostrophe). You can see them above omnium and Christi at the end of the first line. Most of the time, they represent missing "m" or "n" but they can be used as a general-purpose apostrophe, as well.
Once one gets used to distinguishing them, it becomes even more apparent that the VMS scribes were familliar with these conventions. They can be found in both forms throughout the manuscript.The catch is that we don't know if the VMS assigns "meaningful" and "nonmeaningful" in the same way. I suspect it does based on patterns of where they are found, but cannot prove it... yet.

RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - MarcoP - 01-07-2018

(30-06-2018, 10:32 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't remember if this one was shared already, an explosion of loops:

[Image: conraddiploma2.JPG]

11th century German Imperial script

Thank you, Koen. The document is transcribed  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Full image You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

The fragment reads:

... ad presentis vitę tranquillitatem quam futurę beatitudinem promerendam profuturum non dubitamus. Quapropter omnium Christi ....

... industria, qualiter fidelis noster Wicrammus abbas venerabilis Fabariensis monasterii, quod est constructum ...


(01-07-2018, 05:08 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the line and loops on "abbas" indicate abbreviations (usually these loops represent "abbatis" and are drawn in many different ways and sometimes resemble benched gallows),

The word does not read "abbatis" but "abbas" hence the looping Bs are purely decorative Litterae Oblongatae, not abbreviations. I think it is important that readers and writers remember that most of us are amateurs, with no relevant formal training: we cannot reliably read ancient scripts and most of the things we write are wild guess. We are bound to make trivial mistakes (I often do). All statements that are not accompanied by unambiguous supporting evidence should always be taken as highly dubious at best.

Personally, I am happy to know I am ignorant: I think this gives me an opportunity to learn and research with an open mind.

RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 01-07-2018

(01-07-2018, 12:10 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(30-06-2018, 10:32 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't remember if this one was shared already, an explosion of loops:

[Image: conraddiploma2.JPG]

11th century German Imperial script

Thank you, Koen. The document is transcribed  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Full image You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

The fragment reads:

... ad presentis vitę tranquillitatem quam futurę beatitudinem promerendam profuturum non dubitamus. Quapropter omnium Christi ....

... industria, qualiter fidelis noster Wicrammus abbas venerabilis Fabariensis monasterii, quod est constructum ...


(01-07-2018, 05:08 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the line and loops on "abbas" indicate abbreviations (usually these loops represent "abbatis" and are drawn in many different ways and sometimes resemble benched gallows),

The word does not read "abbatis" but "abbas" hence the looping Bs are purely decorative Litterae Oblongatae, not abbreviations. I think it is important that readers and writers remember that most of us are amateurs, with no relevant formal training: we cannot reliably read ancient scripts and most of the things we write are wild guess. We are bound to make trivial mistakes (I often do). All statements that are not accompanied by unambiguous supporting evidence should always be taken as highly dubious at best.

Personally, I am happy to know I am ignorant: I think this gives me an opportunity to learn and research with an open mind.


Marco, I was trying to make a general statement. I know most of my statements were specific to this example, but when I said USUALLY these loops represent "abbatis" (when one sees them with abba or abb) I was talking about how I had seen a similar word as a common abbreviation in other manuscripts. I have many examples. I mentioned it because this group of words (abat, abatu, abbato, abbatuo, abbatabus) is often drawn with a long horizontal line through the ascenders so that it resembles gallows.

I am sorry if I worded it badly and gave the impression I was specifically referring to this one, and I realize now that I shouldn't mix specific statements with general statements, that I should separate them into two groups, but when I said "usually" I was referring to other manuscripts.


I am quite aware that I am ignorant of many things and very willing to admit my ignorance and also to admit my mistakes, but I am NOT making wild guesses. I can support every one of the interpretations I made above.

In fact, your translation confirms each of my statements above that was specific to this sample, so let's work together or at least get along with each other. Conflict won't do either of us (or the forum) any good.

Here is a visual representation of my statements above:


[Image: LitteraeElongatae.png]

RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - davidjackson - 01-07-2018

How common would it have been in this type of script to mix abbreviations with Litterae Oblongatae? Doesn't it lead to confusion?

RE: Which other manuscript contain the most Voynichese glyphs? - -JKP- - 01-07-2018

(01-07-2018, 09:30 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How common would it have been in this type of script to mix abbreviations with Litterae Oblongatae? Doesn't it lead to confusion?


Good question. It was very very common to mix them.

Since they knew the abbreviations so well, as well as we know our alphabet, and since they are expanded based on context (the words and letters around them), it probably didn't lead to too much confusion. I suppose it might occasionally, if it were heavily abbreviated, but most heavily abbreviated text didn't use as many litterae elongatae.