[Book] Unraveling the Voynich Codex - Printable Version +- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja) +-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html) +--- Forum: News (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-25.html) +--- Thread: [Book] Unraveling the Voynich Codex (/thread-2388.html) |
RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - davidjackson - 26-08-2018 Sorry Rene, I was being facetious. RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - -JKP- - 27-08-2018 (26-08-2018, 11:14 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. linked by Koen in the first post, one can access the index of the book and read a few pages from each chapter (at least, the preview is accessible from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Wow, just wow.
Ass backwards. Theory says New World, blinkers go on, now everything is seen through a New World filter, even items that require a BIG stretch of the imagination. Over time, I think this publication will hurt their credibility and I'm afraid Springer might feel the fall-out as well. RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - ReneZ - 28-08-2018 (26-08-2018, 10:07 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sorry Rene, I was being facetious. Hi David, in a way, so was I. While they are clearly wrong, it is not so straightforward how one should demonstrate that. If a botanist makes a statement about one of the botanical drawings in the MS, it does not really mean a great deal if a non-botanist contradicts him. In this case, it is even a bit more interesting. The historian of medicine Alain Touwaide has spoken out against them on several occasions, saying that they lack the necessary historical expertise. Their response is that they don't care about Alain's opinion because he is not a botanist. RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - -JKP- - 28-08-2018 One doesn't have to be a botanist to know that Violas are both Old World plants and New World plants. One cannot distinguish specific species from an imperfect drawing. The same is true for many of the other plant IDs. If they don't like being contradicted by non-botanists, why are they standing by their identifications of crayfish, fish and cats? They are botanists, not fish and cat experts. They can't have it both ways. It's absurd that they would identify the VMS crayfish drawing as a specific New World species when it doesn't even have basic parts in the right places! And for them to identify VMS Scorpius as a Jaguarundi? when there are many Scorpius zodiacs that are dragons, lizards, and tarasks that resemble the VMS Scorpius more than it resembles a cat, that is really stretching credibility: RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - -JKP- - 28-08-2018 From Tucker and Janick, chapter 5, page 2: "The four most unique symbols in the Voynich Codex are t, s, p, and d." This is not true.
RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - Anton - 28-08-2018 Quote:The historian of medicine Alain Touwaide has spoken out against them on several occasions, saying that they lack the necessary historical expertise. Their response is that they don't care about Alain's opinion because he is not a botanist. This is a fundamentally flawed approach, which, quite surprisingly, is quite spread among professionals. A botanist is a person who specializes in botany. In such capacity, s/he is summoned by society to address the society's needs in the knowledge of botany, including questions and opinions of those who are not that proficient in botany, and to resolve those inquiries in a professionally fair manner, not to be deaf to them. A professional who is not able to receive critique and recognize his mistakes is probably not a very professional person (sorry for the tautology). RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - -JKP- - 28-08-2018 The Tucker/Janick text goes on to say, "In fol. 12v and eslewhere in the Codex Osuna, also in as well Codex Aubin (Anon. 1576), there is a version of "tl" in Nahuatl that matches the same character t found in the Voynich Manuscript (Fig. 1A). This character is unique in that it also accompanies the same pronunciation in Voynichese." This is incorrect. I am looking at the page in Codex Osuna and there is no t. It is a ligature for tl that resembles Voynichese k (not t). Are we to assume the authors don't make a distinction between t and k? If so, they should say so because in the VMS they behave differently. EVA-k (k) is a very common Latin abbreviation for Item and also a common ligature for tl or Il. It is found in many languages, not just Nahuatl. English words like "atlas" or "whittle" may have a tl ligature and the stem does not always cross the ascender on the left. In medieval French, Il at the beginning of a sentence is often written this way. Also note in Nahuatl, that the tl (k) is positioned differently from k in the VMS (this is important to note because the authors refer to Voynichese as "real" language in the Chapter 5 introduction, so one would expect certain similarities in position as well as shape). In contrast to the VMS k, in Nahuatl, the tl ligature is frequently at the ends of words and when it is at the beginnings of words, it is not typically preceded by "o" as is common in the VMS. One cannot create analogies based on shape alone. RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - ReneZ - 28-08-2018 I once asked one of the Comegys brothers whether he had done statistics on the 'tl' character combination in Aztec, because the t and k are very common in Voynichese. It seemed to me that they are far too common to represent such a bigram. He came back and said that they are about twice as common as in Aztec, which I found surprisingly low. I have not taken the time to check these stats. RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - -JKP- - 28-08-2018 I've been trying to figure out why the authors made a reference to [font=Eva]t[/font] in the Codex Osuna and I think I've got it worked out. In Nahuatl, one frequently sees tl ([font=Eva]k) because it's a common letter combination written as a ligature. It is also written as a ligature in other languages that use Latin script. There is nothing unusual about it.[/font] But there are also parts of the Codex Osuna written in Spanish, and in those sections, one sees a ligature that is superficially similar to Voynichese [font=Eva]t. This too is a common ligature (the second part usually represents "l"), one sees it in Spanish and French texts, but it differs from the way t is written in the VMS in that the connection between the two letters dips down much deeper than VMS t and the parts below the loops are much more curved. In other words, it does not have the tall straight ascenders that are so common to VMS t. Also, when it is at the beginnings of words, it is not preceded by "o", as frequently occurs with VMS t. Even if there is a conceptual connection between the VMS t shape and the ligature in the Codex Osuna, it doesn't have anything to do with Nahuatl, since it is in the parts that are Spanish, and those parts are written with normal Latin scribal conventions, including per/pro, tails, ligatures, and abbreviations that one sees in many manuscripts.[/font] RE: Unraveling the Voynich Codex - -JKP- - 28-08-2018 The authors are claiming that the following shape from "florid Spanish signatures" on Osuma f 13v inspired Voynichese p: p Tucker and Janick then make this statement, based on shapes that they may not realize are commonly found in medieval manuscripts but which they are specifically picking out of MesoAmerican texts... "We thus conclude that the author of the Voynich Codex made up his syllabary/alphabet, and the letters were borrowed from contemporary post-Conquest MesoAmerican manuscripts such as the Codex Osuma." |