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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 20-12-2022
I think Capricorn and Aquarius were removed. Possibly it is one of the pages mentioned in the letters to Kircher.
From voynich.nu:
Voynich MS - Quire 12
Description
Quire 12 contains the remains of one bifolio, which is folio 73. The original folio 74 is lost and was most probably cut out of the bound manuscript. A cut mark is still visible on f75. The gathering mark is also missing, but may be assumed to have been on f74.
Schematic folio layout:
![[Image: schema12.gif]](http://voynich.nu/q12/schema12.gif)
Aries and Taurus have more detail in my interpretation due to being the astronomical ages with the most known history. What would be the purpose of replacing the winter months with dual spring months? To show global warming? I could see that, actually.
I can't understand your reasoning, though. Can you explain more fully why it would make more sense that way? Drawing spring twice doesn't make it happen. Did they draw it twice because it happened?
RE: No text, but a visual code - nablator - 20-12-2022
(20-12-2022, 05:43 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Aries and Taurus have more detail in my interpretation due to being the astronomical ages with the most known history.It is doubtful that anyone reasoned in terms of zodiacal (precessional) ages in the 15th century.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 21-12-2022
That there was a folio with the signs of Capricorn and Aquarius that was cut is an impossible conjecture to prove. But admitting that it was so, that is not the relevant thing about the Voynich zodiacal calendar. The relevant thing is that it begins in Pisces, something totally unusual, and that it duplicates the signs of Aries and Taurus.
There must be some explanation for this, an explanation that is consistent with a book where almost half the pages are flowering plants. The simplest thing is to think that it was done that way because in March (Pisces) is when the plants begin to flower. And if Aries and Taurus doubled, it is because in the signs of spring, flowering is at its peak.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 22-12-2022
(20-12-2022, 11:13 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is doubtful that anyone reasoned in terms of zodiacal (precessional) ages in the 15th century.Given that works of both Plato and Ptolemy (the latter having written about Hipparchus) were being translated into Latin around 1406 in Florence, i think it reasonable to consider the possibility, especially since the progression to nomadic nakedness fits with that idea.
Please explain the tubs and clothing versus nakedness in relation to plants and signs, because i really have trouble seeing that connection.
Regardless, my point was more along the lines that i have trouble understanding the belief that proof that the two winter signs were never drawn is because they were replaced with duplicates of spring signs in order to bring the number of signs back to twelve. It is not proof, it is not even evidence. The evidence seems to show that the pages used to be there, and the duplicates of the others also seem to have been there from the beginning and were not a later insertion. Even if the posited Capricorn and Aquarius were never there, this would put all the signs out of their usual order. What would be the purpose of that? Even whomever wrote in the month names saw that the duplicated signs were likely indicative of depicting the same months. I can see using a similar argument to mine, that those are signs with high relevance so not all the info fits in one circle (historical times for me, bloom times for Anton.) I can also not understand the belief that the plants would require that this changing of the zodiac is necessary because the plants are generally depicted as being in bloom. I just don't see any logic there.
With regard to Pisces being shown as first, i think it is because today, as it was then, the First Point of Aries, or the vernal equinox, is in the Pisces constellation. The tradition of Aries being first comes from a time when the First Point of Aries was in Aries. Before that, it would have been in Taurus and so on. Soon comes the dawning of the age of Aquarius. But again i don't see the logic of changing the zodiac because that is when plants sometimes bloom. And blooms where? Because my bloom times are different than someone north of me, or south, or higher, or lower, or in some other difference of position or location.(
Are you saying it is like Pisces is depicted as when you have put your seeds in warmth and water and then you pot them up once they sprout, then Aries they start to bloom, so now they are in their pots and getting colourful, then after awhile they lose their colour and run all over the place in order to spread seed? If you agree to that, why is there never a harvest? It just goes on and on the same way after Gemini. How do you explain that?
RE: No text, but a visual code - nablator - 22-12-2022
(22-12-2022, 09:40 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Given that works of both Plato and Ptolemy (the latter having written about Hipparchus) were being translated into Latin around 1406 in Florence, i think it reasonable to consider the possibility, especially since the progression to nomadic nakedness fits with that idea.
Plato is often credited as a source by "cyclologists" as if his Great Year (cycle of sun, moon and five planets returning to their position) had anything to do with precession. Ptolemy and successors could have theorized about zodiacal precessional ages but apparently did not. If anyone did, in Europe, I'd like to see the evidence. There is maybe something about Dionysius Exiguus: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The theory of 6 ages of 1000 years, after Augustine Hipponensis, was "widely believed and in use throughout the Middle Ages". You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Mme Blavatsky (and later esotericists) popularized the zodiacal precessional ages in the late 19th century, based on late 18th century publications by Charles-François Dupuis and Constantin Volney.
Nakedness, in the past, outside of the Garden of Eden and remote southern countries, does not seem to be a medieval concept either.
Quote:How do you explain that?I don't.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 22-12-2022
Rather than speculating about 'spiritual' or ideological interpretations, which will probably always be hypothetical, consider a structural examination, which is objective.
The VMs zodiac sequence is constructed such that each of the first five houses have medallions containing paired 'natural' creatures. It's complicated and it is obvious.
There is no astrological speculation required, the concept introduced in this construction is 'pairing'. The significance of 'pairing' as a concept is confirmed in two passages from the laws of Deuteronomy. The concept of 'pairing' as applied to tub patterns, using the rules of medieval heraldry, leads to historical discoveries.
It's another VMs trick. You are looking up when you should be looking down.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Aga Tentakulus - 22-12-2022
Everything has its place.
We've heard before that the calendar starts in spring.
The fact that some people are standing in clothes is due to the fact that plants are standing in flowers.
These are more common in spring than in summer.
If I want lime blossoms, I have to look at the calendar. If I don't collect them at that time, I won't have lime blossom tea in winter.
If I need the seeds, I have to look at the calendar. I don't want to gather them on the ground, and I also have to be faster than the birds.
It is well known that plants are in pots. Castor bean, for example, would not survive the winter frost.
Now a calendar is also necessary, because alone, depending on the region, the time can shift by 2-3 weeks.
As for harvesting, this is well explained on page f76v.
And lastly, one can even recognise a possible water plant.
Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)
RE: No text, but a visual code - Juan_Sali - 23-12-2022
(21-12-2022, 07:56 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.in March (Pisces) is when the plants begin to flower. And if Aries and Taurus doubledFebruary was Pisces, there is a discordance with month names and signs in the VMS. I understand the double Aries and Taurus as splitted months, whatever it means.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 23-12-2022
You're right Juan_Sali. In the calendars of the time, January was Aquarius and Pisces was February. The names of the months in the VM must have been written much later, perhaps in the 17th century. Obviously, each zodiac sign occupies two months and that may be the reason why Aries and Taurus are duplicated. But then, why aren't the rest of the signs?
In my opinion, it is not a question of claiming theories or great names of the past, but of examining the book and what it contains. If half of the book is flowering plants, that means that other sections will have something to do with this fact. And I think that is the reason why the signs of spring are duplicated. As a way of pointing out its importance for plants to flourish. As simple as that.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 26-12-2022
In relation to the flowers of the VM, I do not believe that the colors were applied without an intention. More than half of the flowers are blue. This is somewhat surprising because the color blue is very rare in nature. Less than 10% of flowering plants produce blue flowers.
Why this disparity with what we see in the Voynich? There may be several answers. I think it is to emphasize the relationship that the sky and its blue color have with plants, which is quite consistent with the cosmological part of the book.