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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Davidsch - 10-02-2019
I do not think there are much associations with a lapidaire which, if I am not mistaken, a lapidaire has the main focus entirely on lapis= rock.
Those rocks are not drawn in the VMS, but mainly we have herbals.
Regarding the letters and possible coding of the entire VMS, I wonder what would be the message the scribe wanted to transfer to the reading.
Every alchemical or mystical manuscript I've seen has a small or bigger piece of plain and readable text, with explanations, usage instructions etc.
I wonder why is it that the VMS does not contains normal text, anywhere.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 22-02-2019
My last post about the tapestry of astrolabes has disappeared maybe because of the last server crash. It doesn't matter. My purpose was to show the identity of the stars and herbs-flowers in the mentality of people from the XV century. You can see other examples of this identity in the Ellie Velinska's blog, in the post 'Dotted Stars' with old manuscripts where stars and flowers are confused.
In the 'Treatise of signatures' by Oswald Croll or Crollius, an follower of Paracelsus, we can read the best description of that identity. It reads: "Stars are the matrix of all the herbs of the Earth and every star of the sky is only the spiritual prefiguration of an herb".
It's the hermetic philosophy of the Italian Renaissance.
God has marked all the creation with signatures. The medicinal herbs are marked. Its shapes (roots, leaves, flowers) resemble human organs, parts of the body which are healed by them. Maybe something of this philosophy is reflected in the herbs of the Voynich and they are part of the alchemical tradition They look like fantastic herbs but they don't need an explanatory text, only to link them with its correspondent stars.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 22-02-2019
(22-02-2019, 06:06 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
God has marked all the creation with signatures. The medicinal herbs are marked. Its shapes (roots, leaves, flowers) resemble human organs, parts of the body which are healed by them. Maybe something of this philosophy is reflected in the herbs of the Voynich and they are part of the alchemical tradition They look like fantastic herbs but they don't need an explanatory text, only to link them with its correspondent stars.
Yes, this is how many of them thought about plants. The shape of the plant was God's way of "signaling" what the plant could cure. And yes, the idea was so pervasive, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the VMS plants reflected this belief (either directly or by copying something from a tradition that included this belief).
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 27-02-2019
I think I've found the origin of two symbols of the Voynich script in some volvelles from the same time of the VMS, what reinforces the hypothesis of an astronomical code.
Is about the symbols EVA-d and EVA-l. They are actually numbers as their shape indicates. The number 8 and the number 4 in its primitive Arabic form. You can see these numbers in at least three wheel charts on the following digitalized manuscripts:
MS Asmole 370 The Kalendarium of Nicholas of Lynn
MS 454 Lambeth Palace Library (looking for volvelle hashtag on Twitter)
BL Sloane 4100, recto
In all three volvelles, the numbers 8 and 4 appear in the inner circle, up and down, four times, separated by a cross in the Zodiac signs Geminis-Cancer on the one hand and Sagitarius-Capricornius for the other. The numbers obviously are the hours of ligth: 8 plus 8 in the day of Summer signs versus 4 plus 4 at night, and 4 plus 4 in the day of Winter signs versus 8 plus 8 during the night.
In Aries and Libra you can see 6 plus 6 because there are the same hours of light in day and night.
I think the Voynich uses only the symbols 8 and 4 and no the others (5, 6 and 7) because they aren't necessary. Once fixed the tropical signs (Cancer and Capricornius) you can place the celestial objects. What matters in the Voynich it's not the hours of light but the position of the stars in the sphere.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 27-02-2019
(27-02-2019, 05:27 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think I've found the origin of two symbols of the Voynich script in some volvelles from the same time of the VMS, what reinforces the hypothesis of an astronomical code.
Is about the symbols EVA-d and EVA-l. They are actually numbers as their shape indicates. The number 8 and the number 4 in its primitive Arabic form. You can see these numbers in at least three wheel charts on the following digitalized manuscripts:
MS Asmole 370 The Kalendarium of Nicholas of Lynn
MS 454 Lambeth Palace Library (looking for volvelle hashtag on Twitter)
BL Sloane 4100, recto
In all three volvelles, the numbers 8 and 4 appear in the inner circle, up and down, four times, separated by a cross in the Zodiac signs Geminis-Cancer on the one hand and Sagitarius-Capricornius for the other. The numbers obviously are the hours of ligth: 8 plus 8 in the day of Summer signs versus 4 plus 4 at night, and 4 plus 4 in the day of Winter signs versus 8 plus 8 during the night.
In Aries and Libra you can see 6 plus 6 because there are the same hours of light in day and night.
I think the Voynich uses only the symbols 8 and 4 and no the others (5, 6 and 7) because they aren't necessary. Once fixed the tropical signs (Cancer and Capricornius) you can place the celestial objects. What matters in the Voynich it's not the hours of light but the position of the stars in the sphere.
Antonio, I don't know if you've seen them, but I have written several blogs on the Voynichese shapes that are of Indic-Arabic origin (including EVA-d and EVA-l).
I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of their meaning, but I've been saying for years that some of the Voynich glyphs are probably based on number shapes and have posted many pictures of them. You can find a couple of the blogs here:
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The earlier one also talks about how syllabification (the intrinsic inclusion of the vowel sound in the character) was common to Indic scripts and Latin scribal conventions. Modern viewers usually don't realize that the same ways of using abbreviations and ligatures were somewhat common to both scripts because, over time, we have basically lost the Latin scribal conventions. Indic script still uses these concepts.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 03-03-2019
When the VMS was made learned people still not used the zodiac symbols. It seems that they appeared in the second half of the XV century, maybe linked to the printing to save space. So in the first half of the century you can write the name of the zodiac sign or to identify it by the hours of light as we see in the volvelles I put in my previous post. The numbers 8 and 4, the latter written in its Arabic form, represent the solstice signs: Cancer and Capricornius.
I wonder if these numbers shed light on the most frequent 'words' of the VMS. As all of you know the string daiin or 8aiin is the most used 'word'. The number 8 would place this string in the Summer solstice. The rest of the symbols would serve to specify the position. This position can not be other than the magic night of Saint John, when medicinal herbs are collected.
In the Voynich the string 8ain, with only an stripe, appears four times less than 8aiin. I wonder if that indicates an position in the Gemini sign, less importan from the point of view of the virtues of herbs.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 11-03-2019
In the VMS there are only images of herbs and stars. There is nothing else. If someone thinks there are women, I deeply disagree because they are personifications of stars.
By pure logic, the script must deal about the images. Without this minimal assumption I would stop trying to decipher the VMS.
So, I believe the script must relate stars and herbs. That's why I think it is an astronomical code. I usually think that we all apply scientific tools and concepts to a cultural product that belongs to another scientific mentality. So I try to find tools from the time of the VMS. The volvelles are appropiate tools. They are analog computers of the XV century and they can explain how the script was generated.
We all know that in the VMS there are glyphs that always or almost always go to the beginning, others in the middle and others at the end of a 'word' or string. A volvelle with three layers or rotatory discs can serve to reproduce this structure and its movement. The glyphs i, ii, iii as c,cc, ccc express this movement turning around the discs.
Some volvelles have the numbers 8 and 4 to represent the solstices as hours of light. We see these numbers in the script of the VMS. What else can it be?
RE: No text, but a visual code - bi3mw - 11-03-2019
(11-03-2019, 05:35 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
The volvelles are appropiate tools. They are analog computers of the XV century and they can explain how the script was generated.
...
It is quite possible that the text in the VMS was created with a Volvelle. I would suppose that no meaningless text could have been intended, but something systematic, as in Ramon Llulls Ars Brevis / Ars Magna. But then a decryption would hardly be possible.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Common_Man - 11-03-2019
(11-03-2019, 05:35 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We all know that in the VMS there are glyphs that always or almost always go to the beginning, others in the middle and others at the end of a 'word' or string.
Why can't they be the result of some kind of phenomenon going on in the plain text? Something like a poem with a different kind of rhyme scheme where the neighboring words sound like each other while still conveying meaning? A poem could also have characteristics like LAAFU..
I don't have anything to back this hypothesis up (yet), but I see VMS now as a product of (nomadic?) people trying to preserve their knowledge as poems with mnemonic images.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 11-03-2019
(11-03-2019, 06:44 PM)Common_Man Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(11-03-2019, 05:35 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We all know that in the VMS there are glyphs that always or almost always go to the beginning, others in the middle and others at the end of a 'word' or string.
Why can't they be the result of some kind of phenomenon going on in the plain text? Something like a poem with a different kind of rhyme scheme where the neighboring words sound like each other while still conveying meaning? A poem could also have characteristics like LAAFU..
I don't have anything to back this hypothesis up (yet), but I see VMS now as a product of (nomadic?) people trying to preserve their knowledge as poems with mnemonic images.
Poetry is not sufficient to explain the positionality of the VMS text, and the lack of variation.