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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 29-11-2018
I don't know if I have any astrological symbols from the 14th century (I haven't specifically looked for them), but I do have some from the early and mid-1400s. I can't put my hands on them during the workday.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 03-12-2018
I've been looking astrolabes in the Museum of the History of Science in Oxford. It has the best collection of these beautiful astronomical instruments. There are astrolabes of all times, but I have seen those close in time to the Voynich. And I was amazed of the likeness of the pointers of the stars with two glyphs of the Voynich: 9 (the y Eva Alphabet) and specially the glyphs g and m.
In the astrolabes the pointers which mark the position of the stars have a rounded head and a pin that ends in a little hook. It's the same shape of (g) an (m) without the strokes (e) and (i) that complete these glyphs.
You can see it par example if browse the Astrolabe Catalogue, in the InvNo 35146, an Italian astrolabe, the 37527 from North Africa, and others like the InvNo 50934 and 53556
RE: No text, but a visual code - Paris - 03-12-2018
Antonio,
For a better understanding, let me insert images of the astrolabes 35146 and 37527.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 03-12-2018
(03-12-2018, 06:36 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've been looking astrolabes in the Museum of the History of Science in Oxford. It has the best collection of these beautiful astronomical instruments. There are astrolabes of all times, but I have seen those close in time to the Voynich. And I was amazed of the likeness of the pointers of the stars with two glyphs of the Voynich: 9 (the y Eva Alphabet) and specially the glyphs g and m.
The EVA glyphs g and m are normal Latin symbols, common ones. They are in almost every medieval manuscript and on many scientific instruments.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 05-12-2018
Thank you Paris for inserting the images of the astrolabes. I'm not good in that.
I think the glyphs (g) and (m) of the Voynich are double symbols: the pointer we see in the astrolabes wich stands for a star and the © or the (i). All the glyphs with c represent the Moon or a position in relation with the Moon, and the glyphs with i mark the position in the Ecliptic, the route of the Sun. Each i (there are up to three i) stands for 15º in the Ecliptic. There are also up to three c. They are lunar days. The other signs of the Moon like (s) and the benches represent also different lunar days. The benches stand for new Moon and full Moon.
I could be wrong, but if it's not that is something like that
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 09-12-2018
The folio f65r is very rare. While all the plants have some lines of symbols, here only a very few of glyphs are needed. And yet more rare, there are up to three consecutive (m) as final glyph, something unusual in the manuscript.
I think that (m) is, without the (i), the pointer of the a star like we see in the astrolabes. So in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the rest of the symbols are the coordenates which mark the position of the star or stars. There are two possibilities: each string with the final pointer mark a different star or is the same star moving in the celestial sphere, that is to say three different positions.
You can think that all this is too imaginative, but if you look at the plant you see that is rare as well: it has star-shaped flowers!!!
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 15-12-2018
I'd like to talk here about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the gallows coverage in general. As I posted in another thread the dotted rounded loops in counterclockwise rotation is for me an iconic depiction of the Ptolemaic system, of the Sun's epicycle. The Sun spinning around the Earth makes these loops.
As you know, in medieval times the symbol for the Sun was a circle with a dot in the center and that is what we see in f42v. In some Volvelles from the time of the Voynich the path of the Sun along the Ecliptic is marked with dots and we see in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a gallow with dots within the loop. Although it could be some embellishment, I think the scribe depicts a section of the Ecliptic because he is aware of being writing an astronomical code.
In a couple of gallows, there are whitin the loop stripes in groups by three instead of dots, like in the clock of the Rosettes and like the Eva-i which is repetead up to three times.
Others features of the gallows coverage induce also to think that the string of symbols is a system of coordenates for marking the position of the stars in the sky.
RE: No text, but a visual code - VViews - 15-12-2018
(15-12-2018, 10:11 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. As you know, in medieval times the symbol for the Sun was a circle with a dot in the center...
Hi Antonio Garcia Jimenez,
actually, I'm not so sure that's true.
We are used to this circumpunt symbol, and it certainly has existed in many cultures for a very long time.
However, in medieval Europe, it is my understanding that the common symbols for the Sun were a circle with a ray and more frequently, with several rays and a face.
![[Image: 800px-Old_symbol_for_sun.svg.png]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Old_symbol_for_sun.svg/800px-Old_symbol_for_sun.svg.png){kind=small}
![[Image: 800px-Sun_with_face.svg.png]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Sun_with_face.svg/800px-Sun_with_face.svg.png){kind=small}
If anything, I think the first one resembles the "dunce hat" face on 67v2.
I may be wrong, but I think in Europe the circumpunct for the Sun is a later, Renaissance creation.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 16-12-2018
Thank you VViews, you are right. I wrote 'medieval times' and that is not correct. The circled dot symbol for the Sun appears in the XV century in Europe and that time isn't medieval but Renaissance, at least in Italy, and I think the Voynich is an Italian book with some features of the Renaissance.
It woud be an error to think that the circled dot is an iconic representation of the heliocentric theory with the Sun in the center, because we can see the symbol in books of the XV century, before Copernicus.
I think the symbol is iconic but represents the Sun's epicycle with the dot in the center and the Sun spinning around of it. The symbol is then a part of the complex machinery of Ptolemaic system for explaining the different positions of the Sun seen from the Earth.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 23-12-2018
I think gallows -its position always as first glyph of a paragraph- and more specifically gallows coverage, as Anton named them, are the better clue for seeing that the script of the Voynich is not a text but another thing.
There are more o less a dozen of straddle gallow Eva-t (Anton dixit). I name them bridges with a leg in a place and the other one away or far away. Example of superbridge is f35r. Usually the legs stand over benches, but not always (see f56r).
For me these bridges are not ornates letters, no embellishment. Is there an example of it in medieval manuscripts? I think these bridges have their own meaning. As all of you know, I defend the theory of an astronomical code and I believe they are some coordenates for reading the movements in the sky.
Merry Christmas!
Feliz Navidad!