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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Aga Tentakulus - 16-09-2021
Sometimes it's so accurate that you have to wonder who signed off on whom.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 16-09-2021
The lightness with which the Voynich plants are identified is surprising. Two years ago two American botanists who claim to have identified them all as Aztec plants received an award from the American Botanical Council. This, which seems absurd and unscientific to me, may convince many people, especially in the United States.
I put this example to show how easy it is to make a mistake, even for alleged specialists. The reality is that in so many years there has been no way to accurately identify even 10% of the VM plants. And the reason is simple: they only existed in the imagination of the person who drew them.
Of course there may be some recognizable herbs. Pulling so many plants out of the imagination shouldn't be easy. Some will be real, but they are only the exception that confirms the rule.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Aga Tentakulus - 17-09-2021
I am not saying that there are no similar plants in America. If I consider only one position, anything is possible.
If I take motherwort and squint, one is a culinary herb and medicine and the other is medicine and very poisonous.
With the one has allegedly even Socrates killed himself.
Both grow on my doorstep.
100m from me there is also a ruin. Unfortunately, it has no swallow-tails.
If I want to find now the two plants also with the battlements, then I must drive 1.5 Stznden by the car by the Gotthard into the south.
In America he can drive or fly as long as he wants, but will not find such pinnacles.
Why do you think Koen wants to create something like a map now? Because he has nothing better to do?
This is where real research comes in to bring all the clues under one roof.
It is not enough to write 1000 times the same, it does not become more correct.
About the 2 Americans..... Don't wake up sleepwalkers.
Topic closed.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 17-09-2021
Happy you who live in the middle of Nature.
All I'm saying is that there is scientific consensus that the Voynich plants are mostly fantastic creations.
No one has been able to identify with certainty a dozen of them. If someone were to do it and get consensus, I would have no problem starting to change my mind, because science is about that, to change opinion when the evidence is sufficient.
RE: No text, but a visual code - tavie - 17-09-2021
(17-09-2021, 02:44 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All I'm saying is that there is scientific consensus that the Voynich plants are mostly fantastic creations.
I thought there was a still perfectly respectable theory that the unusual features of the plants could constitute mnemonics. That is not the same as them being fantastical creations, let alone scientific consensus on that point. This sounds somewhat reminiscent of when you attributed certainty to Mary d'Imperio that she did not herself express.
Quote:Why did the author invent them? The only guide we have to give an answer is the other half of the book, which is cosmological in content. And the most likely answer is that it is the stars that have created those rare herbs, because that answer fits well with medieval thought.
The script is not a phonetic but a visual language because it cannot be otherwise...
I'm struggling to follow your theory here. Are you saying that...
1. The plants are mostly invented
2. Therefore the author was arguing the stars could..."create" these herbs
3. Therefore this proves all the text isn't real text.
?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 19-09-2021
Mnemonics plants? With how easy it was to put a name in Latin or in the vulgar language next to each drawing! Why didn't the author do it?
Simply because he neither knew their name nor knew what to say about the plants because he had just created them. But he thought that there could be such or similar medicinal herbs created under heavenly influences. Is it that the stars have no influence on the human body? There are dozens of manuscripts of the time with the zodiac man drawn.
I think there is not enough emphasis on human fantasy. Medieval men believed in the existence of dragons, imaginary animals composed of parts of other animals. Even in the Voynich there is a little dragon
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 20-09-2021
(15-09-2021, 09:53 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is very possible that what is drawn on the Voynich is a water lily. Possibly there are four o five more plants that can be recognized without a doubt, but they are the exception that proves the rule, the fact that 95% of the herbs drawn in the book are invented.
Something tells me there is a math error in there somewhere. Also, please don't say fact when describing what is simply not yet known, not proven, and has no consensus. It is not the fact; it is the idea, the hypothesis, the belief.
Quote:Why did the author invent them? The only guide we have to give an answer is the other half of the book, which is cosmological in content. And the most likely answer is that it is the stars that have created those rare herbs, because that answer fits well with medieval thought.
Unknown (deemed to be cosmological) content necessitates fantasy herbal drawings because medieval thought is thusly so well presented?
I do not understand what you imagine medieval thought to consist of. To me, it includes everything that came before their time, does not of course include what had been since forgotten, but does also include various new ideas about information from the past. I cannot think of a single prior example of people drawing invented plants because the stars create them with unknowable codes and glyphs, which are laid out for hundreds of pages, but perhaps i havent done the required reading yet. Can you provide an example of similar medieval thought being outlined?
Quote:The script is not a phonetic but a visual language because it cannot be otherwise. There is nothing to say about these unknown herbs, only to put them in connection with the sky through an astronomical code that uses certain rules. It doesn't make sense to us but it does make sense to a medieval man.
Would this be solely for the purposes of the makers of the ms, or could other medieval men look at it and know what it meant, in the situation you describe?
If it is all nonsense, what is there for anyone to recognize?
If i wanted to make a code that showed the movement of the stars, it would probably be along the lines of rise and set times for various heavenly objects. But i believe you have said the only thing such tables have in common with the vms is the use of some glyphs, or did i misunderstand you?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 20-09-2021
(19-09-2021, 02:40 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mnemonics plants? With how easy it was to put a name in Latin or in the vulgar language next to each drawing! Why didn't the author do it?
I gave a reason, they wanted the information to be for themselves and/or not accessible to others.
Quote:
Simply because he neither knew their name nor knew what to say about the plants because he had just created them. But he thought that there could be such or similar medicinal herbs created under heavenly influences. Is it that the stars have no influence on the human body? There are dozens of manuscripts of the time with the zodiac man drawn.
So, mental Crispr, 600 years before its time? That idea is kind of awesome. You know, i have a fantastical pet subtheory about some of the drawings, i think they might have known of the invention of the beetroot through cross pollination. I read somewhere that although the beet plant was used for centuries, generally for the leaves. Selection for roots came about relatively late, about the time of the vms. So i could actually accept that idea to some degree, although i don't think it is what you meant.
Quote:
I think there is not enough emphasis on human fantasy. Medieval men believed in the existence of dragons, imaginary animals composed of parts of other animals. Even in the Voynich there is a little dragon
I have to look up logical fallacies now, i think i see one. Regardless, what have dragons to do with contentless nonsense code that somehow is meant to reflect the idea that stars create plants? I mean, stars do have connections with plants, in some ways. Plants, like us, are all made of stardust. The movement of the stars can be used to log time, during which much can happen in the evolution of plants. Maybe even a bit of the light they throw is involved, certainly so if you include our own sun. But again, i don't think that is what you meant.
Dragons have history, that is why they are part of medieval thought. They are in the herbals we were talking about. You don't have to believe in dragons to copy a dragon from another herbal into your own, whether or not you use it for the same reason. But where is the history behind fantastical imagined drawings of plants (if that is what they even are) combined with meaningless star essence codes?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 20-09-2021
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Is this little dragon that seems to have been created by Walt Disney real?
Of course not. It is a creation of the powerful imagination of the author of the Voynich, like everything else in the book. He used his imagination to explore the hidden powers of nature, the science of his time.
Did he believe that there could be in that wide world that did not know dragons and herbs like the ones he drew?
This is the big question and where I think you have to start investigating the Voynich
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 26-09-2021
Throughout history the majority of those who have been interested in the Voynich have been linguists. as well as cryptographers and computer engineers. There have also been historians of medieval art and iconologists, but the script before the imagery has been the preferential focus of attention.
In this forum, for example, there are excellents linguists. I have learned a lot from them, but the reality is that nothing has been achieved on that side. After more than a hundred years, hundreds of living and dead languages have been tested without result. It only remains to test with extraterrestrial languages.
Seriously, many of us are convinced that the book makes sense. I have that conviction but I think that the solution must come from the images, something easier to attack. And I believe that true experts must participate in the solution, because this is a subject in which the imagination runs wild. Y hope that in the future more medieval art historians and icology experts will join the investigation. It will be a breakthrough.