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+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 06-08-2021
Is it normal to cluster degrees in 8 groups of 3x5? Shouldn't degrees be evenly spaced?
This question can be generalized to any division in 24, usually those are evenly spaced, right? Why cluster 24 in 8 groups of 3?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 06-08-2021
You mention the medieval universe, and concentric spheres, which to me describes various representations of geocentric cosmos.
![[Image: 975e88a374d2ea522bee138ea5e4815d.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/97/5e/88/975e88a374d2ea522bee138ea5e4815d.jpg)
![[Image: pi627q-T6623sw05FaCCPDrzjgcvRfs8afidYI6f...YP6ApyKtM8]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/pi627q-T6623sw05FaCCPDrzjgcvRfs8afidYI6fjHWpW_xObZbEkQoLwyvJDadUj2AxqWHUsXOArn9gGCOHnsU-b6fmZKIp6G50bLpS15jMMg5yiCqxZqHZFYP6ApyKtM8)
![[Image: the-division-of-the-Universe-according-to-Aristotle.png]](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Milan-Dimitrijevic-2/publication/318943230/figure/fig1/AS:613995874643968@1523399432004/the-division-of-the-Universe-according-to-Aristotle.png)
But then you say
In the center is the sphere with the jars from which the essences come out, the virtues of the stars that make de herbs sprout and grow.
and i realize that the medieval universe you are describing is not fitting with any i am thinking of. Can you point to an example showing the medieval universe you mean?
Also, you haven't answered Koen's two questions re your astronomical clock being off center, and having only 8 divisions.
![[Image: u38.jpg]](http://voynichmanuscript.co.uk/u38.jpg)
![[Image: Schema_Orloj_en.png]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Schema_Orloj_en.png)
Here are some more questions:
Is it only meant to represent a hint toward an astronomical clock? Because it seems greatly lacking in complexity.
As it is off center, why are the divisions generally equally set? (How does one read this clock?)
What are we to gather from this representation?
How does it relate to the rosette it is closest to?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 07-08-2021
Please, Let's not complicate things. I have used the example of the Prague clock just to say that it has two hands and that one of them was not to indicate minutes, which would be anachronistic, but to indicate the position of the moon.
The same goes for the little astronomical clock on the Rosettes page at the bottom left. The hands inside the sphere form a triangle with the vertices ending in little circles. It is the same figure, a trine or trigone, that we see in f67v2, a folio that shows the planetary aspects that the sun forms with the moon. On this folio there are little heads at the vertices, one from the sun and the other two from the moon. The distance of 120 degrees to either side of the sun.
Why are there only 8 divisions in the clock circle on the Rosettes page, each with three marks? Because it is an astronomical-astrological clock.
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In this medieval Volvelle we see arrows in the same 8 divisions.
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This Volvelle clarifies it. The 8 divisions are the planetary aspects: trine (2), sextile (2), conjuction (1), opposition (1) an square (2)
Why do the divisions have three marks? Because if each mark is 5 degrees, three marks add up to 15 which is the same as one hour. Thus the clock also symbolizes the daily passage of time.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 10-08-2021
I think it is clear that the Rosettes page is a medieval representation of the universe with its interconnected concentric spheres, although they appear unfolded in the VM, which can make interpretation more difficult.
I am not the first to say this. Others have already done it before, among them the great researcher of the VM Mary D' Imperio.
What I add is that the book is completely homogeneous and iconographically coherent and that it only speaks of one thing, of the same message: the influence of the stars on medicinal herbs
RE: No text, but a visual code - tavie - 10-08-2021
(10-08-2021, 03:40 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is clear that the Rosettes page is a medieval representation of the universe with its interconnected concentric spheres, although they appear unfolded in the VM, which can make interpretation more difficult.
I am not the first to say this. Others have already done it before, among them the great researcher of the VM Mary D' Imperio.
What I add is that the book is completely homogeneous and iconographically coherent and that it only speaks of one thing, of the same message: the influence of the stars on medicinal herbs
It might be a medieval representation of the universe, but there's nothing "clear" about it being so, as with anything in the manuscript. And I'd be surprised if Mary d'Imperio voiced such an unequivocal view.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 11-08-2021
D'Imperio already implied that it could be some kind of synthesis of the author's vision of the 'cosmos' and I find this idea attractive.
This sentence was written in this forum by René Zandbergen in 2016 in relation to the Rosettes page. I don't know where he got the quote, but I do not think there is any doubt that René is a reliable source.
Anyway, in a book half of which are cosmological diagrams, I wonder: Can the Rosettes page be anything other than a medieval representation of the universe?
RE: No text, but a visual code - tavie - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 04:55 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.D'Imperio already implied that it could be some kind of synthesis of the author's vision of the 'cosmos' and I find this idea attractive.
This sentence was written in this forum by René Zandbergen in 2016 in relation to the Rosettes page. I don't know where he got the quote, but I do not think there is any doubt that René is a reliable source.
René's quote supports my point. Implying that X "could" be Y is very different from saying "it is clear that X is Y".
Quote:Anyway, in a book half of which are cosmological diagrams, I wonder: Can the Rosettes page be anything other than a medieval representation of the universe?
Yes, it could be, and there have been several interesting theories on this forum and elsewhere about what else it could be. But no theory so far, including this one, has provided enough evidence to exclude the other possibilities.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 12-08-2021
Ok, let's just let it be: You don't know what the Rosettes page represents and I'm absolutely convinced of what it is.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 15-08-2021
Is it possible to understand the VM script?
I do not think so. It was not in the XVII and XX centuries, nor do I think it will be in the XXI
I think the only way to understand the script is by first interpreting the imagery.
The solution can only come from the comparison with similar objects of its time. There are images in the VM that can be compared to other contemporary ones. Other images have no comparison but they force us to interpret them based on the culture of their time. The script, as I believe, may only be a consequence of the message implicit in the imagery.
So far, the book has been more scrutinized by linguists and cryptographers that by art historians or experts in medieval iconography. Greater participation by the latter may bring new points of view.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Ranceps - 15-08-2021
(15-08-2021, 05:25 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is it possible to understand the VM script?
I do not think so. It was not in the XVII and XX centuries, nor do I think it will be in the XXI
I think the only way to understand the script is by first interpreting the imagery.
The solution can only come from the comparison with similar objects of its time. There are images in the VM that can be compared to other contemporary ones. Other images have no comparison but they force us to interpret them based on the culture of their time. The script, as I believe, may only be a consequence of the message implicit in the imagery.
So far, the book has been more scrutinized by linguists and cryptographers that by art historians or experts in medieval iconography. Greater participation by the latter may bring new points of view.
I completely agree with you, since the language it was written with can be considered extinct, the only way we can get familiar with the concept of that language is through the imagery and/ or the future scientific methods. We can still try to pinpoint the "obvious" from the manuscript.