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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Aga Tentakulus - 04-06-2021
@Antonio García Jiménez
Take a look at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. page.
It's like a picture story. It tells a storyline.
Even in a comic, I don't necessarily need a text to understand the plot.
I think Quire13 doesn't have the right order. Something is just not right here.
You don't start a fermentation before you have determined the ingredients.
Rule: description, ingredients, fermentation, separation, processing.
Quire13 describes exactly this process, but unfortunately not in the right order.
And that's what 30 years of professional experience in pharmaceutics tells me.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 04-06-2021
Hello Aga. I see that you are a professional in pharmaceutics. We think very differently, but it doesnt matter. You are from Zurich and I like you. I have a son in your city working as an engineer.
I understand that if you see a page full of what looks like text, it is extremely difficult to think that what you see is not a text written in some language or some type of encryption. It's actually almost impossible to think otherwise.
For me, they are simply strings of astronomical symbols that follow certain compositional rules and that appear to be a scientific text. And these chains can be lengthened or shortened at will. They are filler.
I believe this not only because an explanation in linguistic terms has not been found, but because it is consistent with the images. It is a half herbarium half astrological book that seeks to connect the macrocosm and the microcosm, something in which the cultured people of that time firmly believed.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 04-06-2021
(02-06-2021, 06:00 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All I want to say is that we must surrender to the evidence. Many members of this forum have spent years, like me, researching medieval manuscripts looking for parallels with the Voynich.
If anyone has ever seen a glyph like EVA-l that was not used as the old number 4 to say it and show it, because I have not seen it. And obviously the glyph that looks like the number 8 in the VM is most likely to represent the number 8 as well. I have already said that for me they are astronomical symbols, just like all the other glyphs.
There is enormous resistance to accepting that there is nothing to read. The script is not legible, but it does make sense. It has a meaning for the humanity of the 15th century who believed in the power of the stars
(03-06-2021, 03:18 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are right, my theory has no scientific background because it is not 21st century science. Understanding the VM requires another type of science, that of the 15th century.
Surrender to the evidence, yes, but what is evidence? Appearance would seem to be evidence, but it can be weak evidence. Appearance is subjective. Appearance can be deceptive.
Better evidence can be found in things that are objective. Position, number, structure, color are objective.
In the investigation of VMs glyphs from the "4 by 17'" sequence, starting with EVA-o, There are three interpretations of the fifth glyph in the sequence, EVA-v, and each has its matching, structural confirmation:
Greek alpha-numeric: EVA-o and EVA-v, properly distanced as lambda and omicron, going right to left, which was valid in Greek.
Medieval numeric: EVA-l and EVA v, properly distanced as numbers 4 and 7. Reference to Typus Arithmetica.
Latin numeric: Eva-v looks like the Roman numeral 5 (inverted) and in is in position five in the sequence.
So this is not just appearance, not just subjective interpretation. Each interpretation has a relevant, objective, positional confirmation. Is this evidence? All three interpretations are overlaid. Is this an occurrence by chance?
What is needed here is 15th century science, as you say. The 15th century science of Oresme's BNF Fr. 565 and de Metz' Harley 334. But even more than 15th century science, we need the whole 15th century 'mind-set', including the Valois version of mythical Melusine, the bathing Muses of Christine de Pizan, armorial and religious heraldry, cloud bands and cosmic boundaries, along with religious tradition (the cardinal's red galero), religious history (the Fieschi popes) and religious events (La Sainte Hostie de Dion), and more. It is, in a way, a discovery and recovery of medieval semiotics that is necessary before seeking their 'idiosyncratic' VMs interpretations and uses (papelonny).
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 05-06-2021
I agree with you R. Sale that we need the whole 15th century mindset to understand the VM, but some things more than others. We do not need to know about politics or battles, but we do need to know about the enormous influence that astrology had on mentalities. Even cardinals of the catholic church like Pierre d'Ailly believed in the power of the stars.
And we also need a lot of common sense. If we have a book in which we see mostly plants and stars, the logical thing is that it talks about the relationship between them.
Regarding the four repeated sequences of f57v, the first thing that stands out is that of the 17 glyphs there are 7 that we see rarely or do not see at all in the rest of the book. The obvious conclusion is that they are not letters or phonemes of any language, but some kind of astrological-astronomical symbol. From here just one more step and it is concluded that all the VM glyphs are astronomical symbols arranged in some way that reproduce the movement of the sky
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 05-06-2021
Perhaps you are already aware that the sixth glyph of the 17 symbol sequence has been compared to a quincunx, in the form shown here.
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While I make no pretense of any familiarity with astrology, I will note that the quincunx does refer to the number five, and to 5/12. My prior post also references the number five and the fifth symbol of the sequence.
A quincunx is supposed to function as a sort of blockade. Medieval numerics in the VMs sequence goes from left to right till it reaches the fifth glyph. Roman numerics inverts the number five in the fifth position. Then Greek alphanumerics goes back from right to left.
The quincunx also refers to the astrological house that is fifth from the starting point. In the VMs, the first five houses, Pisces through Cancer, all have some sort of pairing involved in their medallions. Examples range from the traditional paired fish in Pisces, to the uncommon pairing of two crayfish in Cancer. VMs uses the pairing of complementary opposites in the heiros gamos of Gemini, rather than the similar twins of Castor and Pollux. And it fills in the series with the artificial and unexpected bifurcation of Aries and Taurus. This further generates two pairs of land animals (Aries and Taurus) and two pairs of aquatic animals (Pisces and Cancer). As a result the pairing of paired animals now occurs twice.
Pairing is ostensibly set forth as a potential investigative paradigm. The laws of Deuteronomy require two witnesses to establish the truth. This is stated twice in Deut. 17:6 and 19:15. Pairing can then be applied to the heraldic armorial insignia (tub patterns) shown on the Pisces and Aries pages. Religious tradition and history will proceed from there.
Traditional information has been used in the VMs illustrations, but the manner of its use is not traditional.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 06-06-2021
Yes, the sixth glyph of the 17 symbol sequence can be a [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]quincunx, one of the planetary aspects. And the fifth symbol, the inverted V, it may be the planetary aspect called trine, 120º away.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]https://www.alamy.es/richard-trewythian-efemerides-de-julio-de-1450-con-un-horoscopo-de-un-eclipse-1450-fuente-sloane-428-f-55-image227001289.html[/font]
In this horoscope of an eclipse in 1450, on the right side of the page, you see several planetary aspects drawn. The inverted V is clearly and repeatedly seen.
Actually, I believe that all the glyphs of the VM are astronomical symbols, most of them invented by the authors of the book
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 07-06-2021
If the VMs glyphs are astronomical symbols, what are they supposed to tell us? How is the reader supposed to make sense of the glyphs, when the glyphs compose the text, but your premise is 'No text, but a visual code'?
A small group of people or an individual could borrow and invent a series of glyphs to convey meaning, but if what was done cannot be reinvented, where should the investigation go?
Besides the text, which is still 'No text', [I see there is another new "aspirational" translation in the discussion today.], besides the text, there are the illustrations, - the visual code. What is the visual code? Is it astrology? Or is it alchemy? What understanding has been gained from botany or pharmacology as it is represented in the VMs? The attempt to match a valid medieval, herbal monograph with any text in the VMs was a failure.
Astrology and alchemy were obscure and arcane arts. They were prescientific adventures, misadventures and chicanery. They were often hidden and secretive, that's a possibility. That makes any interpretation more difficult.
Consider instead, what are the predominant areas for the use of visual coding in the first part of the 15th Century? After religion one has to consider heraldry as a widely known visual code, along with the system of heraldic mnemonics known as canting. Setting religion aside because of its complexity and for the greater part, but not total, lack of representation in the VMs, earlier heraldry of this era is much simpler, but, like religion, it also seems to be mostly though not entirely absent. And a bit of religion must also remain in that examples of heraldry are found in both armorial and ecclesiastical forms.
Heraldry is a visual code used in the VMs. It is diffuse and specific. It is diffuse in the examples of nebuly lines in Quire 13. And the use of this line in the VMs cosmos demonstrates the artist's knowledge of cloud-based interpretations established in heraldic lines of division and in its nomenclature. Not to mention the 43 undulations matching to BNF Fr. 565.
Heraldry is more specific on the first three pages of the VMs Zodiac sequence. It isn't perfect. The breadcrumbs are not all lined up in a row. Some may be more difficult to find. And there are some clinkers that make no sense, used on purpose to derail investigations before providing an important element.
Heraldry is even more specific in the use of certain ecclesiastical and armorial elements in the form of ret hats and blue stripes combined on a single character of VMs White Aries. History takes it from there for those who know the tradition of Pope Innocent IV and the cardinal's red galero. This is a visual code in action. Then there is the prior placement of two papelonny patterns, a structure to make a heraldic French pun (pope = pape).
The purpose of all this subtle design of trickery and verification, is to provide two hidden witnesses to verify the significance of the pair of Stolfi's markers that are present of the White Aries page. Their significance is verified because the marker and the armorial insignia are connected in the VMs image. If the images transfer their significance to the markers, don't the markers clearly pass it on to the circular segments of text (or astrological signs , if you will). Doesn't heraldry function as a subtle visual code, a puzzle that must be solved, in order to direct the investigator to this particular pair of text segments?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 08-06-2021
To the question of why VM is important, Nick Pelling wrote something funny: as an example of how impossible it is for people to collaborate on difficult subjects, it's arguably priceless.
It's true. Each of us has our own theory and we don't pay much attention to others. I highly respect all theories, no matter how absurd they may be, because I can't be sure that mine is not.
Although it can often deceive us, I tend to be guided by common sense, which is always a powerful resource and I tell myself:
I've been with my theory in this forum for three years. They are the people who know the most about this and have not yet been able to take my eyes out. They cannot refute it.
And common sense also tells me: in this book there are plants and stars. Is not its object the relationship between the two? If the text has not been read in more than 100 years, is it not something else but with meaning?
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 08-06-2021
Indeed, it is the 'Curse of the Voynich' - like a sort of intellectual fly-paper - one has a hard time letting go. I've been following VMs discussion since a couple years before the C-14 tests were conducted. Over that time, a number of theories have come and gone. Repeatedly. Over and over, these aspirational translations are proposed and under examination they fail. Thanks to the investigators who expose theoretical flaws, but here we are in the carnival arcade shooting at cloud bunnies again. The problem is that these aspirational solutions developed in isolation do not stand up under general investigation.
Each of us has our own theory, it is true. That is a problem, and that is a problem that needs to be overcome. I do not value all theories equally. Some proposals are interesting and well done, and others have been more akin to fantasy, take Newbold's folly, a telescopic representation of the Andromeda galaxy. My theory is a collation of theories, a selection of what I feel is the best of the ideas set forth by various investigators over recent years.
There is no text that makes any sense, there are the illustrations. How are the illustrations to be interpreted? Is the VMs cosmos really intended to represent Andromeda? Some years ago, one researcher suggest the the cosmic illustrations of BNF Fr. 565 and Harley 334 as a better comparison, another investigated the variations in Wolkenbands, several others enumerated the 43 undulations, and someone else discovered the diagrams of Shirakatsi. Then there is the matter of the VMs mermaid, there's a similar representation in Harley 334, the mermaids in Lauber, the question Melusine and the distinctions between the Melusine of Lusignan and the Melusine of Luxembourg. The actual manuscripts of the BNF and Harley were both produced in Paris in the first part of the 1400s. And even a 7th Century Armenian astronomer was contemporary in early 1400s Constantinople. Meanwhile European connections survived the fall of Constantinople - for a few years - until the capture of Trebizond.
Much of this fits quite well within the chronology provided by the single source interpretation of the C-14 tests, or a bit later. Then there are the various sources regarding interpretations of the Golden Fleece. While representation is ambiguous, chronology is clear and compatible with the parchment dates. And when it finally comes to the heraldic interpretation of the blue-striped patterns on White Aries, where it is clear that there are two ways to interpret the orientation of the designs - either radially or in isolation - then it becomes clear that this ambiguity is intentional. The historical interpretation is there *only* for those who know the history.
The VMs may deal with plants and stars. Surely plants and stars were thought to be connected in the 1400s. The VMs may reflect that connection or appear to reflect that connection. However, in reality, there is no such sympathetic connection. The VMs may also reflect historical information ambiguously, and here the representations reflect historical facts. This divides VMs content into two different types: the actual representation of ambiguous information and the ambiguous representation of actual information. The pursuit of meaning depends on the accurate interpretation of content even though that content has been intentionally disguised.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 08-06-2021
(08-06-2021, 03:44 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I've been with my theory in this forum for three years. They are the people who know the most about this and have not yet been able to take my eyes out. They cannot refute it.
...
It's not up to us to refute your theory.
It's up to you to provide enough evidence to support it.