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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 21-11-2020
The VM script is iconic in nature. I mean, the scribe or scribes try to graphically reproduce celestial movements, especially the Sun and the Moon. Is the reason why we see so many symbols with different shapes and combinations of shapes.
To understand this I highly recommend seeing the thread opened by Vladimir: Artifacts in the text
There are benched gallows that have a glyph c underneath, between the c's of the bench. It is the iconic way of representing the transit of the Moon in front of the Sun.
There are also gallows that have a glyph c under the legs. The t and k gallows have the c under the right leg. They are connected, there is communication, there is no eclipse. On the contrary, in the case of p and f gallows, the glyph c, the Moon, is under the left leg. There is an eclipse of the Moon, which is not connected with the Sun, the right leg of the gallows
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 25-11-2020
Vladimir asked himself one of the most surprising questions I have read on the forum:
Can a blot (dot) be considered an independent glyph?
He put the example of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. folio, where there are 206 characters based on the c form. In 6 cases, the left leg of the bench is a blot, compared with the other 206 characters, where there is not a single blot. But the pen and hand remain unchanged.
This phenomenon occurs in other pages and almost always in benches. The most logical thing is to think that they are ink spills...but always in the same place?
Since I think that benches are icons of a position of the Moon close to the Sun, I think that some of the scribes wanted to play with the idea of the lunar eclipse and the darkening of the Moon
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 27-11-2020
There is an important observation from Captain Currier that also corroborates my theory. He said that the gallows t and k are followed anywhere in a word by his little friend c. But the gallows p and f are never, ever, anywhere in the manuscript, followed by c. This phenomenon also occurs in the two languages identified by him.
I think it has to do with the concept of lunar nodes. If gallows p and f are a representation of the Sun in the lunar nodes, the Moon in that place can only be new Moon or full Moon and therefore be represented by the benches. The benched gallows cph and cfh are representations of the lunar eclipse in both hemispheres. The new Moon and the solar eclipse is the bench sh and its differents top strokes. I'll talk about it another time
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 28-11-2020
(27-11-2020, 05:10 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is an important observation from Captain Currier that also corroborates my theory. He said that the gallows t and k are followed anywhere in a word by his little friend c. But the gallows p and f are never, ever, anywhere in the manuscript, followed by c. This phenomenon also occurs in the two languages identified by him.
...
This is mostly true, but not entirely. On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1:05 you will find qopeeedar. The token before it is a bit ambiguous, but one possible reading of it is pesey.
On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 04:07 there is yfeeey[font=Times New Roman]. [/font]On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 08:09, t[font=Times New Roman]here is [/font]ofeeo (the first "o" is ambiguous). In the latter example, the c shapes are a bit squared off, but they are not connected.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 30-11-2020
Why do people seem to assume that Voynichese glyphs can be mapped to common European alphabets and any extraneous glyphs that don't fit can be dropped? This is a question I share with davidjackson.
In the VM script there are dozens of different glyphs. Some may be variants introduced by some of the scribes, but most are glyphs with their own meaning. This meaning is not phonetic, it is iconic
Look at this image: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It is a representation of the phases of the Moon very common to see in medieval manuscripts. What I think is that the VM glyphs c, cc, ccc come out of the transposition of this image to a code. And the benches come out joining the nearby moons, the waxing and waning moons. The plain bench is formed at the full moon and when it is close, and the bench with a top stroke when it is a new moon or close.
Look now at this image: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The sun joins the moons by rays. In the VM script the gallows unite the sun and the full moon between both celestial hemispheres. In the case of the new moon, the sun is in the same hemisphere. No need for a gallows. The link is represented by the top stroke of the bench.
You may think this is all to imaginative. But also think that we are talking about a time when people were mostly illiterate and images and symbols had great didactic power
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 30-11-2020
Which of the gazillion images that i had to wait five minutes to load, much less scroll through, are you referring to in the first link?
The second i could see but i do not know the differences you are referring to re gallows and no gallows
Ok having had more time to scroll, it could only be Phases of the moon, from Ramon Llull, Tractatus novus de astronomia (New Treatise on Astronomy), Mallorca, c. 1400–1450.
So you think this image or one like it was transformed into a code where the c's are multiplied to denote various phases of the moon.
I still do not understand the benches part.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]
(30-11-2020, 09:12 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[/font]
the benches come out joining the nearby moons, the waxing and waning moons. The plain bench is formed at the full moon and when it is close, and the bench with a top stroke when it is a new moon or close.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][/font]
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 01-12-2020
Sorry Linda for the inconvenience.
What I say is simple. Let's see it with a picture of the Voynich to make it more convincing
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This is in f68r1, a nice face of the Moon with the symbol of the crescent moon repeated around it as if they were melon slices. Two very important details: the symbol is always the same, that is, a c-shaped figure, and the horns always face to the right. If you join two contiguous melon slices by the upper horns you have a bench. The VM authors were able to create the benches of the script in this way. I have no invented anything. The idea comes from the authors' own design.
Hoewer, I believe that benches don't join contiguous c's, but c's that are at the same distance from the Sun when de Moon is either near the conjunction or near 180 degrees. Benches are formed as trigonos with the Sun at the vertex, one of the planetary aspects that we also see in other images of the VM.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 04-12-2020
In this image of f67v-1 we see that the sun is in opposition to the moon
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We see that the middle face wears what looks like a pointy hat. Actually, what is represented is the Earth casting a shadow. The shadow is not in the direction of the moon, which probably means that it is a normal opposition, not a lunar eclipse.
The most relevant thing about the image is that there are two moons joined, that is, forming a bench. Next to the image there is a chain of symbols: okchos am
As we see, the bench is preceded by a gallows, which is the sun in the southern hemisphere. The o's have no meaning, The s is another position of the moon and the fundamental thing is am, which is the place where the star is.
All the Voynich script are chains of time and spatial position to locate the stars
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 04-12-2020
(01-12-2020, 04:58 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Let's see it with a picture of the Voynich to make it more convincing
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Don't most people think of that example as a sun, with the figure below being the moon? What would it mean to have 20 crescents around it? What would the figure at the bottom be then? Why would anyone join crescents at all? What would that mean? Two nights instead of one? Why join them? Why not just have two? What does it mean when it is two that are not joined? The moon is only crescent shaped at certain times near the new moon, otherwise it is more like half circles, three quarters, or circular. Why use crescents to denote these other shapes when the shapes themselves would give more meaning?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 04-12-2020
(04-12-2020, 05:15 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In this image of f67v-1 we see that the sun is in opposition to the moon
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
We see that the middle face wears what looks like a pointy hat. Actually, what is represented is the Earth casting a shadow. The shadow is not in the direction of the moon, which probably means that it is a normal opposition, not a lunar eclipse.
The most relevant thing about the image is that there are two moons joined, that is, forming a bench. Next to the image there is a chain of symbols: okchos am
As we see, the bench is preceded by a gallows, which is the sun in the southern hemisphere. The o's have no meaning, The s is another position of the moon and the fundamental thing is am, which is the place where the star is.
All the Voynich script are chains of time and spatial position to locate the stars
I am not convinced about the identification of sun, earth, and double moons. Why would there be double moons? With the text i can see what you are describing, even though i think of benches as the ones with gallows within them, these joined c's would be empty benches i guess? I still don't see what this would mean. What does it mean when the gallows are within the benches?
The sun in the southern hemisphere. So that means night from the perspective of someone in the northern hemisphere, yes? What position of the moon does s signify? How does am signify where the star is? Where in fact is the star in question? Which star are we talking about?