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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 17-07-2020
(16-07-2020, 04:55 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If someone were writing an astronomical text, he would have to be missing a few brain cells to write 200 pages with only numbers 4 (l) and 8 (d) in almost every word while excluding other numbers.
This is the kind of statement that assumes that a fifteenth-century man uses the same logic as ours.
Following this reasoning, we will come to reproach the author of the Voynich for not having done things well.
I have seen many astronomical and astrological medieval texts and, in the medieval scientific community, their logic was not terrible. Attention to scientific method was not what it is today, but the books are rational within what they knew and quite understandable to us.
If your best explanation for the missing numbers in what you claim to be an astronomical text is that they reasoned differently from us I don't accept it. In medieval astronomical texts they did think like us for the most part.
They didn't have telescopes yet, so their comprehension of different celestial bodies was limited, and they depended heavily on classical concepts that hadn't been empirically tested yet, but they did not fill up whole books with the numbers 8 and 4 while ignoring other numbers. In fact, some of them showed insight and intelligence by adapting Indic-Arabic numerals 300 years before the common literate man because LOGICALLY it was a better system (than Roman numerals) for science and mathematics.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 17-07-2020
Just because a fifteenth.century man uses the same instrumental logic as us does not mean that he uses the same logic of knowledge. None of us believe today, as it was believed then, that the stars give their medicinal virtues to herbs. Nor do we believe that the worid is full of angels and demons.
I never speak of an astronomical text. I try to avoid the word text because I just don't think there is any language in the VM. The only thing I am trying to convey is that there is a magic component in the VM without which it is impossible to understand.
What makes me think that the glyph that looks like 8 is number 8 is precisely that it is not accompanied by any number but by 4 in its medieval form.They are two faces of the same coin. And the glyph that represents the number 4 in its old form is not easily replaceable by a letter like 8. Isn't it?
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 17-07-2020
(17-07-2020, 10:44 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Just because a fifteenth.century man uses the same instrumental logic as us does not mean that he uses the same logic of knowledge. None of us believe today, as it was believed then, that the stars give their medicinal virtues to herbs. Nor do we believe that the worid is full of angels and demons.
But we are AWARE that they thought this way. We know they associated herbs, magic, stars and astrology. We are not completely ignorant of how they thought.
Quote:I never speak of an astronomical text. I try to avoid the word text because I just don't think there is any language in the VM. The only thing I am trying to convey is that there is a magic component in the VM without which it is impossible to understand.
You are constantly comparing the VMS text to the numbers to numbers on volvelles/astrolabes. Those are astronomical instruments.
I have read numerous books on medieval magic, including medieval texts themselves. They do not have any kind of obsession with only the numbers 4 and 8. They used many different numbers, with 12 being especially popular.
Quote:What makes me think that the glyph that looks like 8 is number 8 is precisely that it is not accompanied by any number but by 4 in its medieval form.They are two faces of the same coin. And the glyph that represents the number 4 in its old form is not easily replaceable by a letter like 8. Isn't it?
You still have not explained why the VMS would include 8 and 4 but not the other numbers, for 200 pages. Your only explanation is "they thought differently from us".
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 21-07-2020
Yes, you are right, they thought differently from us. That is what I think.
All your comments seem too reasonable to me. This is how we people of the 21st century think. If the VM was so reasonable, it would have long since been resolved.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Pepper - 24-07-2020
Antonio, I'm trying to understand your theory but I'm a complete amateur with no knowledge of medieval manuscripts or astrology. Could you give an example of how the visual code might 'read' if your theory is correct? Would it be something like 'Plant this herb when Cancer at 30 degrees. Pick the herb when Cancer is at 60 degrees.' ?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 25-07-2020
Hello Pepper.
I really don't think it's such an elaborate thing. Not a readable visual code. The script is made up of symbols that do not equal letters, but make sense by themselves. They represent celestial objects or spatial positions in the celestial sphere. They form chains that follow certain rules but without a defined order.
You may think that doing that in more than 200 pages does not make any sense. And it's true, it doesn't have it for us. But there is something fundamental that explains it. The VM is a book of natural magic, specifically astrological magic. The script is only an instrument to put in communication the upper world of the stars with the lower world of herbs. It's like a sacred language. Through this language of magic symbols the stars have created all those fantastic plants that we see in the VM
RE: No text, but a visual code - Helmut Winkler - 25-07-2020
Medieval abbr. went out of use after 1500 because of developments in printing and written scripts and had to be learned again in the 18th c., the social circle of Kircher would not have been able to read them, especially not in extreme cases like the Vms.
And all V. glyphs are Latin glyphs or derived from L. glyphs, which means to me there is a high likelihood the language is Latin
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 25-07-2020
(25-07-2020, 08:31 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the social circle of Kircher would not have been able to read them, especially not in extreme cases like the Vms.
That's an interesting remark if it is true. So they stopped reading manuscripts all together, even the social circle of Oedipus Aegyptiacus himself? It would explain Baresch' exotic take on the script. But on the other hand I would still expect these guys to have been somewhat in touch with medieval manuscripts.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Helmut Winkler - 25-07-2020
Why should they hve taken the trouble? Everything of interest had been printed (and translated) around 1600 and critical research in the modern sense did not start before the late 18th, early 19th c.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 23-08-2020
I have read the clever article by the linguist Peter Bakker and his bleak conclusion: the Voynich is a joke or a hoax, fake text. It's the opinion of many other people.
I am very afraid that this will be the opinion that ends up prevailing in the future. And it will be a shame because many of us in this forum think, as Friedman did, that the VM had a meaning for its creator or creators
My theory may not be correct but what I hold firmly and believe that it is not taken into account is that the VM is a science book with magical content. The script and illustrations try to explain how the hidden powers of nature work.
That can only be explained with an invented language, a special code. No known communication system can account for this mystery. That's the magic at work. We who believe in science and its exciting history should understand this.
What would a medieval man think if he saw Maxwell's equations that explain electromagnetism?
Wouldn't he think that this is a magic formula to explain the hidden powers of nature?