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+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 06-07-2020
I see, Barbrey, that you have started now with the Voynich with enthusiasm. If you allow me, I will give you some advice. The first: have no doubt that this is a genuine European product from the 15th century.
The second: try not to be reasonable when you investigate it. I mean, the mindset that made the Voynich has nothing to do with ours. A man from the past is almost as mysterious as a man from de future.
And finally, use reason only for this: if in more than a hundred years of research (not counting the 17th century) no one has found a language, there is no one.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 06-07-2020
One of those pieces of advice is rather difficult to agree with
RE: No text, but a visual code - Barbrey - 11-07-2020
(06-07-2020, 04:22 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I see, Barbrey, that you have started now with the Voynich with enthusiasm. If you allow me, I will give you some advice. The first: have no doubt that this is a genuine European product from the 15th century.
The second: try not to be reasonable when you investigate it. I mean, the mindset that made the Voynich has nothing to do with ours. A man from the past is almost as mysterious as a man from de future.
And finally, use reason only for this: if in more than a hundred years of research (not counting the 17th century) no one has found a language, there is no one.
I'm not sure why you felt the need for this advice: I have not questioned the manuscript's provenence of the 15th century (though it is possible it was only scribed then, not originally authored then), and I myself am not looking for a language - my attempts would be fruitless as I more than likely would not know it. Instead, I'm looking for patterns relative to what I believe the text's cohesive message is as shown through the illustrations. As I believe it is essentially pharmaceutical in nature, the prior sections of botany, astrology and biology showing why these medicines are effective, I've been looking at major medieval influences in those sciences and trying to read them when there are English translations.
It's true I throw out a million ideas, at least now as a newcomer, but I only post them publicly to see if others have already pursued a line of inquiry before I begin ruling it out myself.
For instance, whether through the use of a volvelle, or in matters of astroligy, alchemy, botany, pharmacy or natural philosophy, whether in real lamguage, invented language, symbols or code, some characters in the manuscript must represent numbers. And unless this is some kind of changing cypher, the same characters should consistently represent the same numbers (though they might also represent other things). I believe this could very well be a key to unlocking the manuscript but have not found any articles on the subject so far that speak of a detailed analysis.
Once you have the numbers down, you can go about relating them to the illustrations, and eventually a system would emerge, and from that would open up if there is a language, a code, a volvelle, or a nonsense.
For me, though, I need to know the major influences that could bear on my initial impression of the text's cohesion. For that reason, I am looking at the Corpus Hermeticum, Al Kindi's On Rays, Dioscordes, the Picatrix, etc. with many more to come because I'm totally enjoying this research whether it bears fruit or not. I am not looking at scripts, languages,etc. but at symbols, particularly symbols as they might relate to numbers, and the way numbers were used in these disciplines of the day..
For instance, you yourself have said the author uses a volvelle and "o" represents a degree, which could easily be the case Knowing the info a volvelle might give you, the "o" should be associated, much of the time, with a number, if your theory is correct. At least I assume so. - that's why I asked what info a volvelle gives you, but as you didn't answer, I will google!
I disagree that we today cannot try to think like those from the past. Our brains are the same, though they operated within different systems in the past. I don't believe in astrology or magic. That doesn't mean II can't at least partially understand the mind of a man or woman who does believe in these things, particularly if I read up on them.
Anyway, I will not bother your thread any more as I think you're adamant that the whole thing is random astrological gibberish and for now I am unwilling to concede, though who knows what I will think a month or two from now! Show me the numbers and you will utterly convince me!
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 13-07-2020
Sorry Barbrey if something I wrote has bothered you. I encourage you to continue investigating because nobody really knows anything about the Voynich.
I can not answer your questions because, for me, if there are numbers in the script there are only 8 and 4 for the reasons that I have already said.
I only have a handful of ideas that I defend with tenacity. I would never say that the VM script is random astrological gibberish. It may simple be a game that doesn't make sense to us, but it does make sense to whoever wrote it and to the humanity of his time
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 13-07-2020
Antonio, I know I have said this before, but an astronomical or astrological text that has 200 pages with only the numbers 8 and 4 is difficult to imagine.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 14-07-2020
Difficult to imagine?
If I am precisely one of the few who apply a strictly positivist method. I do not imagine anything. I have seen in medieval astronomical artifacts (Volvelles) the numbers 8 and 4 with zodiacal value and I relate them to the same numbers that I see in a codex half botanical half astrological as the Voynich.
If there is anything imaginative in Voynich research it is the Eva alphabet or any other transliteration system.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 15-07-2020
(14-07-2020, 04:43 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Difficult to imagine?
If I am precisely one of the few who apply a strictly positivist method. I do not imagine anything. I have seen in medieval astronomical artifacts (Volvelles) the numbers 8 and 4 with zodiacal value and I relate them to the same numbers that I see in a codex half botanical half astrological as the Voynich.
If there is anything imaginative in Voynich research it is the Eva alphabet or any other transliteration system.
Are 8 and 4 the ONLY numbers you have seen in astronomical volvelles?
I am assuming the answer is no. So why are all those other numbers not in the VMS? Why only 8 and 4? And why do they appear in almost every word for 232 pages?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 15-07-2020
Also the number 7 (an inverted v) is in the volvelles and the Voynich.
I don't know why only 8 and 4 are so repeated in the Voynich. Perhaps it is because fixing a zodiac sign (Cancer in this case, 8 and 4 represent the summer solstice) is enough to place the entire zodiac ring. But this is speculation.
The only real thing is that all of us are in the deepest darkness regarding the VM. And if we see a glyph that has the shape of an 8, we are somewhat closer to the truth if instead of thinking that it is the letter d, we think that it is simply... the number 8!
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 15-07-2020
Antonio, in medieval texts, both the letter d and the letter s were sometimes written to resemble the letter 8, so it's equally reasonable to consider that EVA-d might be a letter. In fact on folio 116v, which is mostly plaintext, d is used as the letter s.
Also the inverted "v" glyph is rare. If it represents "7", there are very very few of them.
If someone were writing an astronomical text, he would have to be missing a few brain cells to write 200 pages with only numbers 4 (l) and 8 (d) in almost every word while excluding other numbers.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 16-07-2020
If someone were writing an astronomical text, he would have to be missing a few brain cells to write 200 pages with only numbers 4 (l) and 8 (d) in almost every word while excluding other numbers.
This is the kind of statement that assumes that a fifteenth-century man uses the same logic as ours.
Following this reasoning, we will come to reproach the author of the Voynich for not having done things well.