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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 29-05-2020
This is another page of the Kitab al-Bulhan
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There is an exended Eva-t gallow like in the VM. It has another symbol on the bar. There are also extended gallows in the VM with other symbols in the bar.
The other symbol on the extended gallow of the Kital al-Bulhan looks like the dragon's tail, an astrological symbol
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 29-05-2020
The reason the chars are attached to a line is because some of these talismanic characters are eastern in origin. It's similar to the way most variants of Sanskrit are attached to a ine. You can also see the connection to Arabic chars.
The characters that cross the line of the char that looks like EVA-t are superimposed, as is common in Greek. It also happens occasionally in Latin but is much more common in Greek.
I'm very familiar with these characters. They can also be found in books of Kabbalah (both Hebrew and Latin) in various configurations (usually in connection with angel symbols, kabbalah, and necromancy, which use the same line-plus-small-loop conventions as the talismanic chars).
And, as I have pointed out, they are connected with repelling and attracting demons. There are demons on the folio you linked.
Many western books of kabbalah and magic that included similar symbols were burned in the Inquisition due to their connection with summoning demons and other spirit entities. We know this from reading chronicles and especially legal papers that detail the trials in which these books were confiscated and burned. Probably only a small proportion survived, but it's enough to get the idea of their content. Spirits were also connected with angels and, in turn, angels were connected with stars. That's one of the reasons the "angel" chars (lines and little loops) are similar to drawings of constellations and why astrology was also connected to magic.
These talismanic symbols, and talismanic-style symbols (based on the shapes but not necessarily the same meaning), are also found in Arabic books of ciphers and in Arabic books of talismanic versions of the Islamic alphabet.. Here are examples that include many loop-line shapes:
![[Image: islamicFeatured.jpg]](https://library.princeton.edu/projects/islamic/images/islamicFeatured.jpg)
. ![[Image: 0bd4bcdf281908cfb06edf4fe7032471.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0b/d4/bc/0bd4bcdf281908cfb06edf4fe7032471.jpg)
(I have seen a fairly large manuscript like this that is essentially the Arabic version of the Tranchedino collection in the sense that it's a compendium of alphabets, some of which are probably ciphers).
The Picatrix also has many line-loop forms. It's a combination of magic, prognostication, astrology, and other occult subjects:
![[Image: picatrix.jpg]](https://nadiyashah.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/picatrix.jpg)
In a symbol system that is expressly based on loops and lines, it is inevitable that some of the symbols will resemble VMS chars composed of loops and lines, but the talismanic symbols are closer to the VMS glyphs than some of the kabbalistic symbols because they were specifically used for writing spells and talismans (like the talismanic bowls I mentioned earlier).
Another example, which I believe is from Imam Ahmed Al Buni, who wrote about magic, and the connections between letter forms and astrology (especially the lunar mansions):
![[Image: 7507b215d6ed2943839cf7d0aba7229a.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/75/07/b2/7507b215d6ed2943839cf7d0aba7229a.jpg)
The symbols at the bottom, in red, are Arabic numbers (you have to read them right to left).
As you can see from the examples, most of the forms were created by combining lines with little loops at one or both ends. Often the lines cross over each other to create grids, cross-shapes, and boxes (some of which had additional occult significance due to their overall shape). There's every combination you can imagine.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 29-05-2020
If I am not wrong, the Kitab al-Bulhan is the codex in which we see more the gallow Eva-t. Since the VM research began, no manuscript like this has been found with so many gallows Eva-t.
If I am wrong, I will gladly rectify if someone shows me an example to the contrary
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 30-05-2020
The question is not whether this MS shows an unusual amount of glyphs that look like certain gallows - it does. The question is whether this resemblance is relevant. If you combine a limited amount of elements, you have a limited number of possible results.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 30-05-2020
(29-05-2020, 10:32 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If I am not wrong, the Kitab al-Bulhan is the codex in which we see more the gallow Eva-t. Since the VM research began, no manuscript like this has been found with so many gallows Eva-t.
...
The EVA-t shape is a letter in a talismanic alphabet (as I have now explained several times). A letter in an alphabet will be used many times.
Amulets and other talismanic objects also include these shapes. They are not only in manuscripts, they are on bowls, pendants, and numerous other talismanic objects.
And, as I also explained, they are also found in Latin manuscripts that have been copied from Middle Eastern manuscripts (mostly Hebrew, but also Arabic and sometimes Syrian).
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 30-05-2020
Assumptions, assumptions again, once again. Koen G, the resemblance is very relevant, the most relevant. It is not something that comes out of our head, it is a fact of reality. And science is about interpreting reality.
Findings like this are a torpedo against the interpretation of the VM as a language and many people are reluctant to abandon their assumptions. The VM is a codex of astrological magic and the resemblance of this talismanic character is a proof of it
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 30-05-2020
Not really. It reminds me of the way all major early cultures built pyramid-like structures in similar manners. If there is a connection, then it must be something like aliens since we also find these pyramids with pre-columbian cultures.
But the explanation is much simpler: the pyramid shape is just the easiest way to stack stones! It is the most basic application of one of the most important principles when building tall structures: the higher you build, the wider your base needs to be compared to the top.
This might be something similar: two "cultures" arriving at the same shape independently because it derives naturally from their premises.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 30-05-2020
(30-05-2020, 07:36 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Assumptions, assumptions again, once again. Koen G, the resemblance is very relevant, the most relevant. It is not something that comes out of our head, it is a fact of reality. And science is about interpreting reality.
Findings like this are a torpedo against the interpretation of the VM as a language and many people are reluctant to abandon their assumptions. The VM is a codex of astrological magic and the resemblance of this talismanic character is a proof of it
You don't seem to have understood anything that I have written about these talismanic characters.
1) The script you linked in the Arabic manuscript is a talismanic alphabet. It does not say anything against the interpretation of the VMS as a language.
2) Also, just because someone borrows a shape (or invents a shape) does not mean they are using it for the same purpose, which means that it is not sufficient evidence FOR or AGAINST the interpretation of the VMS glyphs. It is only a piece of the puzzle. You are trying to use one piece to describe the whole puzzle, one that is missing many pieces, too many to know whether the resemblance is direct or if it is coincidence.
RE: No text, but a visual code - ReneZ - 30-05-2020
Images from this, or a very similar manuscript, have been circulating in Voynich fora for many years.
One cannot exclude, in my opinion, that the Voynich composer(s) saw this symbol in such a MS and liked it and therefore reused is.
However, it is not possible to prove this either way right now.
It may well be that we will never find out.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 30-05-2020
Images like this, René, may have been circulating for years, but it amazes me that no one has highlighted the resemblance of a glyph so difficult to find with the same glyph of the VM.
And it's not only the gallow Eva-t but also the gallow Eva-k in the same page, even the extended gallow.
It is not the first stone that I throw against that wall that is the interpretation of the VM script as a language