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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 25-06-2018
If you look at astronomical and cosmological sections, at the labels next to stars, only two things can signify these labels: the names of the stars or its position in the celestial sphere. What else can it be? They can't be names because there are stars with the same string of glyphs. They can't be called the same. But, yes, they can occupy a similar position in the sky, in the ecliptic circle. That is the reason by wich there are repeated 'words' in a row
When thinking about the stars we have to make a big effort to forget that there are millions and millions of them. No, there are not. We have to see it like the mankind of the Middle Ages. There are only 1.022 stars, and only 346 form the zodiac signs. These 346 stars are de important ones because they give its medicinal virtues to the plants. They are the stars whose position is represented in the Voynich.
Thas is what I believe.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 26-06-2018
All of us have seen that rare ending in a lot of words of the Voynich MS: dy in EVA alphabet, although I prefer the numbers 89, because I believe that the scribe wrote indeed these numbers. This is one of the strong support of my theory about the script as an original method of linking herb with stars. To me, 8 and 9 represent the outer discs of the rotatory dial, namely the Volvelle, with which was generated the string of glyphs
These numbers represent the eighth and ninth celestial spheres, something well known in the Middle Ages. Due the precession of equinoxes, both spheres stand for the stars of the Zodiac, but they don’t fit. For example, Aries don’t start in the same grade in each sphere. That is the reason by wich in the Voynich appears the ending 89 to indicate that one particular star is in both spheres
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 27-06-2018
(26-06-2018, 06:07 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All of us have seen that rare ending in a lot of words of the Voynich MS: dy in EVA alphabet, although I prefer the numbers 89, because I believe that the scribe wrote indeed these numbers. This is one of the strong support of my theory...
In Latin, the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, and 9 all stood for abbreviations, for letters, so you cannot assume, if they are numbers, that it is strong support for your theory or that it is nonlinguistic.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 27-06-2018
Thank you JKP for your comment. Only with an open and honest discussion we will be able to advance.
I'm sure you know more Latin than me. I only know the Latin I learned in the distant days of the school. But as a speaking of a language coming from Latin I am pretty acquainted with the Latin and I'm no afraid of it. I'm more afraid of english.
As I've told some times, when I started to investigate about the Voynich, I told me myself: hundreds and maybe thousands of well learned men in the XVII and XX centuries, experts in Latin and others languages, did'nt find out anything, so I have to try another way.
I don't know if my theory is the good one, but I strongly believe that thinking in the Voynich as a hoax, forgery or meaningless text is to admit our inability for understanding the european culture from the XV century.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 27-06-2018
Modern Latin does not include abbreviation symbols that were used in medieval Latin. Those symbols disappeared when the printing press was invented because it was hard to typeset such a rich and varied set of characters.
If you look at the "9" symbol in the VMS, you will notice that it is usually at the ends of words, sometimes at the beginning, and rarely in the middle of words. It also sometimes stands alone.
This is exactly how the "9" abbreviation in medieval Latin was positioned and it is NOT typical of the way numbers were positioned.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 27-06-2018
Exactly! This similarity with the Latin or any language is what have always baffled the researchers. The scribe, of course, was an educated and trained man. He knew to write Latin and all the scribal conventions. That is the reason by wich when he was writing the string of glyphs he did some of them with the shape of letters.
With regard the number 9, it's not positioned in a word or sentence. It's positioned in a string of glyphs, no letters.
Is it the 8 a letter too? Is it 8 an abbreviation of a letter? I don't think so. I think is simply the number 8. I also think that the glyph with the tie shape, the l in EVA alphabet, is the old number 4 and indicates a position in the Ecliptic.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 28-06-2018
(27-06-2018, 09:37 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Exactly! This similarity with the Latin or any language is what have always baffled the researchers. The scribe, of course, was an educated and trained man. He knew to write Latin and all the scribal conventions. That is the reason by wich when he was writing the string of glyphs he did some of them with the shape of letters.
With regard the number 9, it's not positioned in a word or sentence. It's positioned in a string of glyphs, no letters.
Is it the 8 a letter too? Is it 8 an abbreviation of a letter? I don't think so. I think is simply the number 8. I also think that the glyph with the tie shape, the l in EVA alphabet, is the old number 4 and indicates a position in the Ecliptic.
Antonio, explain to me why the number 9 is mostly at the ends of tokens, sometimes at the beginnings of tokens, and only occasionally in the middles of tokens.
I have never seen numbers positioned this way in any medieval manuscript. Are you saying that the letters are null characters?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 28-06-2018
Thank you JKP for your communication
I know is difficult to get used, but I think there are not text in the Voynich. There are not any letters.
The so-called letter (o), I think it represents a grade or a star of the celestial sphere. The letter (a), the grade when is in planetary conjunction with de Sun o the Moon (there aren't more planets). The letter (e) with the shape of c, simply is the Moon, and cc and ccc, the Moon in sequential days. I think there are more glyphs wich represent the Moon en different positions and days. The letter (i) is a leaned sign.We can see it repeated in the astronomical clock of the Rossetes. It is a marker of the sphere.
The problem is to identify well the stars and I think the number 8, 9 and the old 4 make this function, indicating when a particular star is above o under the Ecliptic and in the eighth o ninth sphere. I dont' know how all the system works, I only have the intuition that it must work.
With a little help of my friends of this forum, it will work
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 28-06-2018
Antonio, I don't think you are understanding me.
I have NO TROUBLE with the concept of this possibly being a code or something synthetically generated. I have NEVER assumed it's natural language, so it is NOT difficult for me to get used to.
But your theory is not taking into consideration some important structural characteristics of the VMS text.
You have a hunch that it might be coded astrological information, but why would someone code this astrological information (including the 8 and 9 characters) into almost every word in the VMS from beginning to end for 200 pages? Wouldn't there have to be some information in between these codes for it to make any sense? And WHY would the 9 almost always be at the end? and sometimes at the beginning and rarely in the middle? I've asked this question three times now. Numbers in medieval manuscripts are not positioned that way. Numbers used for linguistic abbreviations ARE positioned this way.
I don't mean this to sound derogatory, but hunches are easy. Theories are easy. Explaining HOW the information fits within the theory is the part that matters and sometimes you have to put the theory aside and actually study the text to see what is going on to get to the answers. In my opinion, theories tend to get in the way of objective observation.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 28-06-2018
Don't worry JKP, what you say don't sound derogatory. With the discussion we will be able to advance
I think in Science the theory many times comes before the demonstration. In any case is a mutual interaction. For solve the Voynich we need a theory wich fit with the mindset of mankind of XV century and to be consistent with what we see. No a mental construction. What I see in a page is a string of ooooooooo in a circle and in many pages the same o in the center of stars. It is the same o that I see in the 'text'. I see the leaned i in the clock of the Rossettes repeated three times, the same leaned i I see in the 'text'. I see in another page the planetary aspects, and like many people I see the lunars mansions and eclipses drawn. And I see stars, many stars all over the Voynich.
And what I know of XV century is that medicinal astrology was studied in the university, and their belief in the influence of the stars on the herbs and the people in general.
And I see in the Lapidarium and Libro de la Octava Esfera from King Alfonso X the wise (both digitalized) how they try to identify each star with latitude and length, or more visually like the Aries horn, the rear leg of Taurus, Pisces tail...
I think the Voynich is a method to identify stars too, but I don't know how it works. The number 9 stands at the beginning or at the end, or alone, I think for marking the position of a particular star in the ninth sphere and not to be confused with another in the eighth sphere, but it could otherwise. Sincerely I am no sure, but as you see my hunch is based in objective observation.