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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 12-04-2020
It doesn't take 200 pages to describe how to locate stars.
I just looked at a star chart a couple of days ago. It had the magnitudes and the latitudes/longitudes for a list of bright stars, the ones they considered most important, and it was half a page.
Now I know if you are mapping all the stars of all the constellations that they used to describe at the time, that it takes a number of pages of charts—I've seen those too, but they are never 200 pages long.
There are also charts for positions of the moon and they can be a few pages long, but they are almost always in chart form.
As for astrolabes, if you can fit all the information on an astrolabe that is the size of a lunch plate, why would it take 200 pages to reproduce the information (and why bother)?
Also, descriptions of the locations of stars are more positionally varied than VMS tokens.
The text in the VMS varies a little, we have Curriers A and B and there are line and paragraph patterns. There are also somewhat undulating pockets of patterns where certain glyphs show up more often than others or where the rate of repetition is higher than in other places. Imagine a field that is relatively homogenous, but there are small clumps of grass that are a bit taller or a slightly different color from the rest.
But, for the most part, the VMS is almost disturbingly homogenous from beginning to end.
I don't disagree that the VMS might be symbolic. I don't disagree that it might be about astrology or a simple version of astronomy.
But right now the fact that it might be symbolic is just an idea. Until you can demonstrate HOW the information is encoded in some meaningful way in the actual tokens, preferably a couple of lines of translation... it's just an idea.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Aga Tentakulus - 13-04-2020
@Antonio
Maybe I didn't express myself right, or maybe I wasn't completely sober.
Sure it's visual. I can see the signs, but I cannot feel or hear them.
Even if the author is the only person who can read it again, it is still possible.
It doesn't matter what the characters look like, cuneiform or Egyptian.
If a blind person wants to solve a 1000 piece puzzle, it will only work by trial and error.
The clever one will program a robot now, if not, then next.
That is the way it is with VM. A transcription is worth nothing if the program is not there where the possibilities play through.
And now explain to me what visual means to you.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 14-04-2020
I don't know how to decode the VM, but I have a strong suspicion founded on facts not hunches. I will summarize my ideas using the cogito ergo sum cartesian method.
1º We have a book with an script and images. We don't understand the script but we can recognize the illustrations. There are mainly herbs and stars. We see women holding stars in the signs of the zodiac, ergo they must be allegories of the stars, a well-know medieval resource.
2º There are especially herbs and stars in the VM, ergo the book should deal with the influence of the heavenly world on the terrestrial world, according to medieval philosophy and science.
3º It has been impossible to identify plants in years and years of research, ergo the authors of the book did not want to draw known herbs.
4º There are no known plants and the authors don't know Picasso, they are not 20th century artists, ergo there must be some astrological magic here.
5º The astrological magic is that the authors believe that stars can create the plants they imagine, ergo those herbs must be somewhere on Earth
6º The script of the book uses totally unknown glyphs, ergo it must be a system to link the stars with the plants using magical characters, although the authors believe or not in them. It can be just a game.
7º The most common glyph is a small circle and I have seen this small circle inside the drawings of the stars in the VM and in many medieval manuscripts, also in the drawings of the zodiacal signs in other codices. And what is more important, in a folio of the VM I have seen nine small circles in a row forming part of a sphere, ergo these small circles represent the degrees of the ecliptic, and by extension the stars themselves.
8º There is in the script another glyph that I have seen in the images of the VM: the inclined line. And this inclined line I have seen it also in manuscripts and astrolabes as marks in the ecliptic, ergo it must also be an astronomical symbol.
9º I've seen very rare glyphs called gallows that sometimes stretch and sometimes straddle other glyphs, like they're a graphic representation, ergo the script it's something that seems to move, not an alphabet
10º In many years of research no one has found an underlying language in the VM, ergo it must be a communication system that uses astronomical-astrological symbols. This system made sense for its authors
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 14-04-2020
Antonio, I don't know how to decode it either, but we have 6 pages of threads where you are repeating the same thing, that it's symbolic rather than linguistic.
You don't have to convince us of that. There are quite a few people who are open to the possibility that the VMS is symbolic (including me), and have been for some time.
What you need to convince us is that it's specifically astronomical or numerical, because you are being more specific about what the content includes than just saying it's symbolic.
I think you were on the right track when you pulled out some examples from manuscripts of the kinds of data the VMS might represent. Now if you could MATCH UP some of that data with some parts of the VMS, even a few tokens, then maybe you can demonstrate how it might work in Voynichese.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 14-04-2020
What you say JKP is fine, but you have not told me anything about my ten points of cartesian reasoning.
Can you refute it?
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 14-04-2020
Antonio Wrote: 3º It has been impossible to identify plants in years and years of research, ergo the authors of the book did not want to draw known herbs.
This kind of argument doesn't work.
The fact that it has been impossible to identify SOME of the plants might mean that some of them are not plants in the botanical sense, but Koen had given some good examples of other possible interpretations. And those interpretations have nothing to do with astronomy and might not have anything to do with the text.
There's no guarantee the text is related to the drawings. The text might have been added by another person at another time for another purpose. I am hoping they were added at the same time (and I suspect they were), but there's nothing to prove that yet.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]
Antonio Wrote:9º I've seen very rare glyphs called gallows that sometimes stretch and sometimes straddle other glyphs, like they're a graphic representation, [/font]ergo the script it's something that seems to move, not an alphabet[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]This argument doesn't work either. These kinds of straddles, combined glyphs, and embellished scripts are found in Greek and Latin manuscripts. I have dozens of screensnaps to document that they are not unusual. What is unusual is the specific choice of shape for the gallows. The fact that some of them cross over others is not unusual (at least not in Greek script).[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]
Antonio Wrote:8º There is in the script another glyph that I have seen in the images of the VM: the inclined line. And this inclined line I have seen it also in manuscripts and astrolabes as marks in the ecliptic, [/font]ergo it must also be an astronomical symbol.[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]This is not enough to prove anything. If you can find some rationale for the glyphs just before and after an inclined line, if you can suggest an interpretation for the entire token (or preferably a few in a row), then maybe this is important. But if you can't, then maybe the inclined line is a coincidence. There are a number of Latin scripts that have inclined letters (especially r and i). But, finding it in drawings might mean that the drawings have some astrological or astronomical significance but proves nothing about the text unless you can directly relate them.[/font][/font][/font][/font]
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 14-04-2020
Antonio Wrote: 6º The script of the book uses totally unknown glyphs,ergo it must be a system to link the stars with the plants using magical characters, although the authors believe or not in them. It can be just a game.
Only a few of the glyphs are unknown (t, p, and their benched versions). The rest of the glyphs are known and most of them are quite common.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 14-04-2020
And for the nine small circles (ooooooooo) in a row of the f70r1, followed by other glyphs?
Do you also have an explanation for that?
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 15-04-2020
You can't look at just the small circles and ignore what is around them.
There are dots in front and letters and dots behind. Any explanation of the circles should take the whole pattern into consideration.
Is it possible the circles mean something related to astronomy or astrology? Yes, maybe, the whole section has a cosmological feel to it, but I have also seen embellishments like this, with long rows of circles, that have no relationship to astronomy, and have screensnapped some of them.
But even if they are, it doesn't mean the rest of the text is related. There are no rows of circles (or even two circles in a row) anywhere in the main text. The main text could be about something else.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 15-04-2020
Sorry JKP, I respect your opinions but I have not been convinced by any of your replies to my ten cartesian points.
The fact that it has been impossible to identify SOME of the plants might mean that some of them are not plants in the botanical sense...[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]There's no guarantee the text is related to the drawings[/font]
I would say that it is the opposite. Most of the plants have not been identified. And what does it mean that some may not be plants? You leave me speechless. Thinking that there is no guarantee that there is a relationship between script and drawings is a challenge to common sense
These kinds of straddles, combined glyphs, and embellished scripts are found in Greek and Latin
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Decoratives scripts of course, but have you seen many big bridges between glyphs like those of the VM?[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Maybe the inclined line is a coincidence. There are a number of Latin scripts that have inclined letters[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] Have you seen many Latin scripts with three inclined lines in a row? Is it a coincidence that those three lines are seen in the imagery of the VM, especially on the clock of the Rosettes folio?[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Only a few of the glyphs are unknown ([font=Eva]t, p,[/font] and their benched versions). The rest of the glyphs are known and most of them are quite common.[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I would say that the rest of the glyphs maybe resemble known glyphs in shape but have another semantic value[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You can't look at just the small circles and ignore what is around them. [/font][/font][/font][/font]There are dots in front and letters and dots behind. Any explanation of the circles should take the whole pattern into consideration.
The whole pattern of f70r1 is nine small circles followed not by letters but by other glyphs of the VM script. And the dots also represent the degrees of an sphere. This is one of the biggest clues against the linguistic theory of VM