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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 30-07-2019
It could be, although it would be more convincing if you showed some examples of the abbreviation of Radix with this glyph in books of herbs or any kind, not only astronomical ones.
Because the problem is that if we agree that most of the Voynich glyphs are derived from Latin letters and abbreviations, the consequence is that the scribe reused them and gave them a new function. If they kept their Latin meaning, long ago that the VM would not be a mystery.
Therefore, the question is what is this new function and where did the scribe get the inspiration to design some of the glyphs, especially the gallows.
The only thing I say is that the gallows may have been born from the abbreviation of Radix in the codex of astronomical tables, because the VM is in part (I think that above all) an astronomical codex and gallows are also the 'Radix' or starting point of the paragraphs.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 31-07-2019
(30-07-2019, 04:16 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It could be, although it would be more convincing if you showed some examples of the abbreviation of Radix with this glyph in books of herbs or any kind, not only astronomical ones.
This is the busiest time of year for me workwise. I simply don't have time to look up examples for you but the abbreviation (and fully written-out word) is common in books of medicine and apothecarial matters. If I come across some good examples, I will post them.
Quote:Because the problem is that if we agree that most of the Voynich glyphs are derived from Latin letters and abbreviations, the consequence is that the scribe reused them and gave them a new function. If they kept their Latin meaning, long ago that the VM would not be a mystery.
Many people disgree about Latin being the origin of most of the Voynich characters but they mainly seem to be people who are not familiar with Latin letters, numbers, abbreviations, and ligatures. Everyone who knows medieval Latin scribal conventions is familiar with the following characters. They are common:
a o e c d l k y ' g m r s ch n u
[font=Arial]These are less common, but they are not rare. I see them intermittently:
sh q x v
[/font]
I am not sure about the idea behind the VMS i char. I don't know whether the shape is based on 1 or i or a generic minim or something else because it's not common for it to lean back in Latin scripts. The Latin r char was sometimes leaned back, but not usually i.
The gallows characters are a little different. They are not directly taken from Latin (except possibly k, which is common in languages that use Latin characters), but since they are similar to k they might be combinations of common Latin shapes. Obviously t is very similar to k (and t does show up occasionally in Latin manuscripts, but it is not common).
It is my feeling (and I can't prove it because there aren't enough benched characters to be sure) that the idea for benching may come from Greek. As I've written and illustrated in blogs, stacking and benching are common in Greek numerals, and Greek letters were often stacked (combined like monograms) in places where space was constrained or where it looked artistic. In other words, benching and stacking were normal concepts to Greek scribes. It's one of the few scribal conventions that was not adopted by the Romans. Putting a loop on the upper-right corner (as in f) was also common in Greek but was only partially adopted into Latin (as in the "-is" abbreviation).
It was not unusual for students to learn both Latin and Greek. I have come across the Greek alphabet (and accompanying numbers) in many different Latin manuscripts, so anyone with a university education was probably familiar with the Greek alphabet even if they were not fluent in Greek.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Helmut Winkler - 31-07-2019
The gallows characters ...
seem to be derived from 'Auszeichnungsschriften', most likely half uncial and the benching is easily explained by the way ligatures are made.
It was not unusual ...
That is not true for the ealy 15th c., a wider knowledge of Ancient Greek was not usual before the early 16 th c. and even then it was not common, that is why all Greek writings were translated into Latin up to 1600 and most editions are bilingual
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 01-08-2019
More Radix
I'm sorry if I am tedious but the smallest detail is important.
In this book You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[url=https://www.milestone-books.de/pages/books/003073/king-of-castile-alfonso-x-leon-alfonsius/tabulae-astronomicae-johannes-danck-fl-first-half-14th-century-canones-in-tabulas-alphon][/url]
The word Radix is whole o abbreviated as Ra, but at the beginning of each period of time there is an arrowhead in red. This mark is different from the one we see also in red to indicate the beginning of a line.
This detail is significant because the arrowhead brings to mind the glyph Eva-q and the left leg of Eva-t of VM
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 03-08-2019
For me the finding of the abbreviation of Radix in the form of R attached to the sign identical to Eva-k has reinforced the idea of gallows as astronomical symbols. In fact, Eva-t and Eva-k look alike and work alike in the VM script and with the others gallows serve as Radix, starting points of the paragraphs.
But the most convincing thing is to see this observation related with the way the left leg of the Eva-t works. I think most of us agree that this part of Eva-t is simply Eva-q. The glyphs are identical. Eva-q is in the line but in Eva-t is above the line. There is a change of position, a movement that in astronomical terms is a change of position and time.
And to that add the almost non-existence of Eva-q in labels, where there is no movement, and the fact it is almost always followed by o, the most common glyph of the script, a glyph that could represent the iconic symbol of a star.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 03-08-2019
Antonio, confining your study of the Radix symbol to only astronomy books is not good research.
I find things every day. Every day. Interesting things. Potentially important things.
But what you have to do is LOOK AROUND to see if it really IS important or if it's commonplace. That's the real work, and that takes time (time people don't want to devote, which is why there is so much bad research).
Finding Radix in astronomy books, okay, might mean something, might not. How do you know?
You must look at OTHER KINDS OF MANUSCRIPTS to see if it is specific to astronomy books, or common to every kind of manuscript.
You have NO IDEA if you are looking at an elephant's tail or at an elephant's trunk if you are 1/2 a centimeter away and you fail to step back and examine the big picture.
No one will take you seriously if you examine only what you WANT to see.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 04-08-2019
JKP, don't forget that I work in the National Library of Spain and I have access to thousands of manuscripts. Of course I am convinced that if the VM is resolved someday it will be investigating manuscripts and cultural products of its time, and not with computers and algorithms.
For me, the big picture as you say, is the mentality of XV century people because the VM is only a product of the mankind of this time, very different from us. It's not about knowing that mentality but about internalizing it to understand it.
An example of this big picture and mentality is the astrolabe tapestry You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Can you explain to me why the author mixed stars with flowers and herbs in constellations as if they were the same thing?
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 04-08-2019
(04-08-2019, 01:21 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An example of this big picture and mentality is the astrolabe tapestry You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Can you explain to me why the author mixed stars with flowers and herbs in constellations as if they were the same thing?
In the detail that you posted, flowers and stars are not mixed as though they are the same thing. I think that might be a misinterpretation of their intention.
What the weavers did is show that Ursa Minor (the constellation) is based on the animal (the "little" bear) that lives among the flowers. They added the pattern of stars on is body to remind us that it's also a constellation. It's a mnemonic.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 04-08-2019
Given that outside the circle of Ecliptic there are stars and no herbs, it is logical to think that flowers replace stars in constellations inside the Zodiac.
I think it's a way of saying that not all stars have power over herbs. There is a relationship between the Zodiac and the plants, specifically medicinal herbs, and here there is an example
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RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 05-08-2019
(04-08-2019, 07:42 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Given that outside the circle of Ecliptic there are stars and no herbs, it is logical to think that flowers replace stars in constellations inside the Zodiac.
I think it's a way of saying that not all stars have power over herbs. There is a relationship between the Zodiac and the plants, specifically medicinal herbs, and here there is an example
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
We do know that they believed there is a relationship between zodiac constellations (and the planets) and plants. That was taken for granted at the time.