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+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 13-07-2019
As JKP says I have no evidence, but in this thread I have provided some clues and I will show another one:
This is the 'Tratado de Astrologia de Enrique de Villena' You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There are several astronomical circles but there is a difference between them. Only those that represent the ecliptic with the names of the zodiacal signs have three lines or stripes. Therefore it can be ruled out that these lines are decorative.They would be in all circles if they were.
These lines mark the beginning degree of each zodiacal sign and the previous and subsequent degree. It is an abbreviated way to indicate that the circumference is divided into 360 degrees.
We've all seen those three lines or stripes in the VM imagery. In the astronomical clock of the Rosettes pages and in other illustrations. I think the lines are also in the script. They are the i sequence: i ii iii. They are not letters. The fact that they are leaned indicates that they are inscribed in the sphere.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 21-07-2019
I have something very close to evidence:
Look at this page of the book of Alphonsine Tables: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You see the Latin word Radix to indicate the starting point of the computation of each era: the Diluvium era, Alexander era, Cesaris era...
The scribe changes the word Radix. He leaves the letter R but changes the rest of the word and replaces it with a sign that is the same as the right leg of the gallows Eva-t and Eva-k of the VM.
This sign or symbol can only mean noon, since it was the noblest moment of the day and when the computation began. Thus, the Alphonsi era began at noon on the eve of his coronation as king: May 31, 1252.
Therefore, in the VM the Eva-t could mean noon and Eva-k the midnight. Eva-t would be formed with the left leg (Eva-q that goes up the horizon) and the right leg, the meridian.
These gallows and the others would work as starting points. That would explain that they were almost always at the beginning of the paragraphs in the VM.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 21-07-2019
Rx is a very common Latin abbreviation. It frequently stands for recipe, root, or king, which means it also shows up in books about pharmacy and medicine (and politics). It's still used today for the prescription sheets the doctor gives a patient to get medicine from the pharmacist.
Actually, since Rx stands for "root" in the abstract as well as the literal sense, it may show up in almost any context, but it's common in books of medicine and astronomy.
So, it makes you wonder, in a manuscript with more than 100 plant folios and less than 20 cosmological folios, which is more likely? pages and pages of astronomical coordinates that would be difficult to use because they are not lined up in charts, or a compendium of apothecarial information or medicinal recipes related to plants?
I'm not saying it's either one, or it might be both, I'm just trying to look at it from a practical point of view. If they are astronomical coordinates, they would have to be completely rewritten in chart form. The same with moon tables, calendars, or Easter calculations. It's very difficult to use them if they are written out like narrative text. By the way, I have looked for narrative style versions of these kinds of information, and they do exist, but usually the information is organized into charts.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 21-07-2019
To me the explanation is that the sign is an abbreviational x, together with the r, meaning radix, ie the middle letters are implied by the abbreviation. The timing might be taken as noon, seems reasonable, since any other time of day is more difficult to observe directly, but this does not mean the glyph means noon. Absence of any other glyph used with the r to mean radix of another timebase means you cannot show this one is noon and another stands for another time of day, therefore there is no evidence of any meaning other than radix, which can be any time of the author's choosing.
Plus the whole point of a radix is to be a root time to which you add or subtract the timing you are interested in. Why would you have two roots 12 hours apart? Just add 12 hours to the noon root.
It could be that evaK is really rx though, and even that it means radix. I had though of it as an rl ligature before, could be rx.
I just dont think there is evidence for the noon idea. It also doesnt make sense to me that evaT would be noon and evaK would be midnight, the noon bit would still be there in the latter, wouldn't it? If anything evaT would be midnight, being a mirror of your noon glyph, if that is what it means. But then the r wouldnt be there to help remind it means radix. Or are you saying it means qx, does this abbreviation stand for something known?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 21-07-2019
I do not interpret, there are already too many interpretations about the VM. I only describe what I see.
In the same page of the Alphonsine Tables we see two abbreviations of the Latin word Radix. Not one but two. Indeed there is an abbreviation with the letter R and a line that crosses the leg of the R. It is the Rx that we can see in other books. Here it is used to write Radix Solis or Radix Lune. The abbreviation and the word are in red.
But, and this is significant, there is another Radix abbreviation in black. In this one the letter R does not form an X, but is attached to a sign that is identical to the right leg of Eva-t and Eva-k.
Since it is an astronomical work and refers to the beginning of an era, the logical thing is to associate that sign with noon because all the astronomical tables were made to start at that time of day.
Many members of the forum doubt that the gallows are letters or think they are nulls. The simplest explanation is that they can be astronomical symbols.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 22-07-2019
Antonio, you are interpreting. The Rx abbreviation is used in many contexts, as I mentioned in my previous post.
Rx was used in the context of recipes (as in pharmaceutical recipes, which in those days were almost entirely plant-based) AND root (as in the root of a plant, which is why the word is so strongly associated with recipes) AND root (as in the abstract sense of fundamental or underlying) AND king (Rex) and a few other less common expansions, since any number of letters can be inserted between the R and the x.
Recipes were often written out in narrative form. Astronomical coordinates were rarely written out in narrative form, they were usually assembled into charts.
If there is an abbreviation for Rx in the VMS, it might have many meanings. There was no rule that said scribes had to use an abbreviation for only one thing. Medieval abbreviations were very flexible.
An astronomical interpretation is not the simplest explanation in a book with more than 100 pages of plants and only a few pages of stars.
Yes it's possible that the VMS includes numbers (or is entirely numbers), but numbers can be interpreted into many kinds of information (including linguistic). They don't have to be specifically astronomical.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 22-07-2019
JKP, I don't doubt what you say. I just say something very simple and I return to put the link for everyone to form an opinion.
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---In the abbreviation of Radix in black there is a glyph attached to the letter R that is identical to the right leg of the Eva-t and Eva-k of the VMS. Is it true or not?
---This glyph appears in an astronomy codex. Is it true or not?
---The abbreviation, the R with the glyph, marks the starting point of a computation. Is it true or not?
My only interpretation, or better deduction, is that this glyph attached to the R has been used by the scribe to mark the passage of the Sun along the meridian, the moment when the computations began.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 22-07-2019
Of course it's true. It's a common Latin abbreviation.
Most of the Voynich glyphs are derived from Latin lettters and abbreviations. The Latin abbreviation for "Item" is written exactly like k. Are you surprised to find Latin shapes in a manuscript that is mostly Latin shapes?
These are Latin letters:
a o e c d r s [font=Sans-serif]and possibly i[/font]
These are common Latin abbreviations and ligatures:
k r s g m y ch sh n
d [font=Sans-serif]and l are Latin numbers.
In other words, the majority of VMS characters are Latin.
The Rx (root/radix) symbol is also a common Latin symbol, but not just for astronomical charts, for anything that has to do with roots.[/font]
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 23-07-2019
This is an old and confusing subject. Mary D'Imperio already talked about the similarity of the VM script with the Latin characters and abbreviations.
What I believe is something that MarcoP wrote: if there is a relation, it could be the reuse of existing symbols with a different function. This can be seen in most cases in which medieval alphabets were invented.
The devil is in the details. I've seen in the same page of this astronomical tables codex three ways to write 'radix'. First the whole word, then the R with the right glyph of Eva-t and Eva-k and finally in red the R with a crossed line to indicate the x. All in the same page. All with the same intention or meaning?
If you or someone show me the abbreviation of radix with the glyph identical to that of the VM in a herbarium or a book of any subject, that would be more convincing.
RE: No text, but a visual code - davidjackson - 23-07-2019
You'll probably find a few in copies of the Fasciculus medicinae. Plenty of recipes in those copies, and also lots of nice circles and astrological connections.
![[Image: urine-wheel-2.jpg]](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dvQ7EcvElUo/XIyxhkBWC9I/AAAAAAAAees/MlcJia7md4oFOXEYTlZBpLuFZKN-zGtzwCLcBGAs/s1600/urine-wheel-2.jpg)