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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 09-06-2019
I understand, Linda, your resistance to abandon the idea of a language, especially in Quire 13. We would all like that together with those nice ladies there was a wonderful story to read. Sorry but the Voynich is a boring science book full of data. For me, in fact, it is a variant of those medieval codices full of astronomical tables.
I'm convinced that the VM is a astronomical system but I don't know how it works.
My theory is based in empirical evidence. In the script we have the following tokens:
an ain aiin aiiin
ar air aiir aiiir
al ail aiil aiiil
am aim aiim aiiim
Pay attention to the line and forget the other symbols. It seems clear that the line marks change of position, indicates movement. This leaned line or stripe we see it in astrolabes, volvelles and zodiacs from the time of the VM to mark each degree of the sphere. And we also see it in the VM, in the clock and other circles of the Rosettes pages, in the pond where the ladies-stars bathe, and even whitin the loops of some gallows.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 11-06-2019
Who defends a linguistic solution will be difficult to explain the behavior of (aiin) and (ain). Why are there five times more tokens aiin than ain? And there is also aiiin, with three iii. In fact, three leaned stripes because to alphabetize the symbols, although useful for the analysis, confuses about its meaning. The shape of the symbols has meaning.
And there is twice as much daiin as aiin. In fact with the number 8, not the letter d.
Does this have a linguistic explanation?
Is not it easier and more rational to think about a system of positions?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 11-06-2019
(09-06-2019, 03:30 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I understand, Linda, your resistance to abandon the idea of a language, especially in Quire 13. We would all like that together with those nice ladies there was a wonderful story to read. Sorry but the Voynich is a boring science book full of data. For me, in fact, it is a variant of those medieval codices full of astronomical tables.
I'm convinced that the VM is a astronomical system but I don't know how it works.
My theory is based in empirical evidence. In the script we have the following tokens:
an ain aiin aiiin
ar air aiir aiiir
al ail aiil aiiil
am aim aiim aiiim
Pay attention to the line and forget the other symbols. It seems clear that the line marks change of position, indicates movement. This leaned line or stripe we see it in astrolabes, volvelles and zodiacs from the time of the VM to mark each degree of the sphere. And we also see it in the VM, in the clock and other circles of the Rosettes pages, in the pond where the ladies-stars bathe, and even whitin the loops of some gallows.
I still do think it is science based, but i wouldn't be surprised if there were tabular information included. However even the words you quote above, i read what many write as dain as 8am...we still haven't even agreed on which characters they are, or how many there are, even within a single vord...which makes using the eva or other transcriptions risky, you would first have to compare them against the entire text so that you feel confident with the transcription, and then...still it needs to be unravelled, whether it is text or data. The possible permutations are daunting.
RE: No text, but a visual code - farmerjohn - 11-06-2019
(11-06-2019, 05:32 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Who defends a linguistic solution will be difficult to explain the behavior of (aiin) and (ain). Why are there five times more tokens aiin than ain? And there is also aiiin, with three iii. In fact, three leaned stripes because to alphabetize the symbols, although useful for the analysis, confuses about its meaning. The shape of the symbols has meaning.
And there is twice as much daiin as aiin. In fact with the number 8, not the letter d.
Does this have a linguistic explanation?
Is not it easier and more rational to think about a system of positions?
an, ain, aiin, aiiin being different vowels is perfect explanation.
Thus wordan, wordain, wordaiin, wordaiiin may stand for one word in different cases. Obviously different cases have different frequencies. word = “” or “d” are just particular cases.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 11-06-2019
Also, even if it is data about star locations, there would still need to be names of stars, or at least the constellations theu are part of, so there would still be linguistic issues to deal with, would there not?
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 11-06-2019
Quote:Antonio wrote: "I understand, Linda, your resistance to abandon the idea of a language, e..."
I wish you would stop saying this, Antonio.
Skepticism about it specifically being astronomical coordinates is NOT the same as resistance to abandon the idea of a language.
People are simply asking you to do some analysis and SHOW how your system can work. We know what you think it is, but we need to see some evidence.
I do not assume the VMS is language. It could be many things, nonsense, synthetic language, steganography, calendrical information (which is not the same as astronomical coordinates), reference info to a companion text, a two-step code (which might involve numbers in one of its steps), there are many possibilities.
It could also be a MIXTURE of language and numbers. Many medieval manuscripts had both. To me, this seems more likely than 200 pages of astronomical coordinates.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 12-06-2019
You are right JKP. I should not insist so much on the idea that it is not a language. Actually, what I want to convey is that all linguistic analyzes ends up without result, reinforcing the idea of something meaningless or a hoax. And it would be a pity if the idea that the VM is something false prevailed.
My strength idea about the VM is that it is difficult for us to understand it with our mentality and intelectual approaches. Let's think the zodiac man pictures. It seems absurd that people thought that the stars influenced human health, but that was the science of the time.
The VM was something meaningful for the people of the XV century.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 12-06-2019
Quote:Antonio: I should not insist so much on the idea that it is not a language.
No, Antonio, that is not what I meant.
You should not insist that we are rejecting a symbolic structure of some kind. We are not rejecting it. Many of us are looking at a variety of possible interpretations of the text, one of those being symbolic. You seem to be assuming we are not.
However, one has to keep an open mind until there is evidence. Which means that we also have to consider that it might be natural language (or some synthetic language), or natural language mixed with symbols (numbers, astrological, calendrical, kabbalistic, secret society, or some other symbology).
In other words, one should not decide either way until there is evidence. Yes, it might be symbolic, but one has to SHOW how it could work.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 13-06-2019
(12-06-2019, 04:57 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. what I want to convey is that all linguistic analyzes ends up without result, reinforcing the idea of something meaningless or a hoax. And it would be a pity if the idea that the VM is something false prevailed.
Unless it is so. I don't particularly think so but i can't prove anything at this point so i have to keep the option open.
But without coming up with a way that your degree of sphere data works, it will end up with the same result as the linguistic analysis you speak of. So keep moving forward with your ideas!
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 17-06-2019
The shape of the glyphs has meaning. This is for me an essential idea because it is able to explain the structure of the script.
For example, Emma Smith has insisted that (o) and (y) are equivalent, the same class of glyph. It is a fundamental idea for her. But this key element of the structure we do not visualize it for having given an alphabetic value to the glyphs.
(o) is not the letter o, and the 9-like glyph is not an (y). It is a (o) with a tail. The structure and shape of the glyphs complement each other.