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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 31-05-2019
"Logically, each represents a degree of the sphere."
Logically, there may be other reasons.
I think 30 degrees of the ecliptic is the simplest explanation, but certain calendars (like blood-letting calendars) were also divided into groups of 30, so I don't think we should assume there's only one possible explanation.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 02-06-2019
Blood-letting was practised according to phases of the Moon. I don't see the Moon in the zodiac section of the Voynich.
It is evident that each woman represents a degree of the sphere. In fact, the author drew twice Aries and Taurus with 15 women each to add 30 and 30.
What about Aquarius and Capricornius? They were never drawn. Plants are not born or grow in winter.
There is an obvius correspondence between stars and plants.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 02-06-2019
(02-06-2019, 08:52 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
What about Aquarius and Capricornius? They were never drawn. Plants are not born or grow in winter.
There is an obvius correspondence between stars and plants.
I think this is better than some of the suggestions people have given, but there are actually plants that grow in the winter, such as some of the plants from the cabbage family. They can even grow where there is mild frost and light snow and I'm quite sure people did grow them because there were no supermarkets in those days.
Also, plants grow all year round in the milder or warmer parts of the Mediterranean.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 03-06-2019
Quire 12 is one page, rather than a bifolio, so it seems possible that aquarius and capricorn were once attached, and are now missing. If they aren't missing, you would appear to be missing some degrees of your sphere, no?
I dont think it is as obvious as you think, this correspondence of stars and plants, my own views on the zodiac section are not plant related, and the stars only come into it in terms of the great year.
![[Image: Precesion.png]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Precesion.png)
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 03-06-2019
There are two clear indications to think that Capricorn and Aquarius were never drawn. First, the zodiac starts with Piscis, something very unusual (Aries is always the head in the many pictures of zodiac man from this time). And second, Aries and Taurus are repeated, as if the author wanted to keep the twelve signs structure.
The numbering of the folios is posterior to the manuscript, so to think that Capricorn and Aquarius disappeared is a simple assumption.
If these zodiacal signs were not drawn, it's because winter is not relevant for plants.
That there is a relationship in the VM between plants and stars is for me a kind of axioma. If I did not believe it, the Voynich would seem absolutely irresoluble.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 03-06-2019
I can see your point and had thought similar before, i am just keeping open to possibilities.
I don't trust the page numbering at all, so i don't put much stock in it being meaningful one way or the other except as a glimpse as to the page order at binding. I think a lot has been shuffled and flipped.
With regard to Pisces being first, i think this shows an understanding of precession in that this was and is the age we are currently in. And it is necessary to know this to make use of some of the older data with regard to the first point of Aries and previous pole stars, etc.
Since the zodiac can't really be in any other order than Pisces first, i can only guess that if Aquarius and Capricorn existed, they would cover a time period past 20,000 years ago, so would likely just show more naked nymphs. I think the reason there are two each of Aries and Taurus and that they are mostly clothed and their tubs decorated is that these are the main ages of civilisation. Prior to that, people were nomadic, hence less likely to be involved with architecture or fashion beyond utility, which explains the rest of the zodiac being portrayed without clothing and only rarely with architectural aspects, although usually the tubs are on their sides or piles of stones, ie archealogical finds or caves perhaps.
I cant see how duplicating two of the signs retains the 12 sign structure when the counts on each are halved.
That is just the way i see it. I can see your perspective as well, though, but i can't explain the state of the nymphs and tubs in the month reckoning, which is why i tend toward the ages explanation.
But it is still the same zodiac in either case, just different ways of moving along them, so the months
reckoning may well apply exactly as you have explained.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 06-06-2019
Let's imagine that we are experts in medieval herbaria and we see the VM for the first time. It's amazing that the author does not inform us in Latin or in another well-known language about the properties of plants and that he does not take care to draw them well in order to recognize them.
As the other relevant part of the VM is astronomical, cosmological or zodiacal, it is logical to think that the herbarium is made based on those other sections. There are no more sections because the so-called biological and recipes sections are also astronomical. In the VM almost everything is stars and plants.
I sincerely believe that this is the first step that must be taken to understand the VM script. The invented script is only the way of bringing the two worlds, sky and earth, into communication.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 06-06-2019
I waffle between thinking it was a script just for himself, and/or for whomever else he let in on it, vs a universal script that transcends language. But either way i think we need to see it through his perspective.
Are you thinking that it would be in table form when unpacked correctly?
I keep thinking about certain labels being only one character different than the next, to me that suggests that only one coordinate is different between them, slightly up down left or right? X many degrees that way? What would it look like?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 08-06-2019
What you say Linda is a projection in space of Torsten's self-citation system: tokens similar appear in close vicinity. If the tokens or string of glyphs are a set of symbols which represent celestial objets and coordinates, they are moving in the sky and only differ in one coordinate.
You can describe the features of VM script and to think that not makes sense. But it has a deep structure that is not linguistic. It is a code of symbols that responds to some rules that are a projection of the celestial movement.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 08-06-2019
The problem remains that you can hold this thought but no proof of it can be shown until you can unravel the system. Because you hold the idea so well i encourage you to continue working on breaking it down, even if it is only an example of how it could be. Until a glimpse of the system you suspect can be outlined, others are unlikely to be able to flesh it out for you, but may be able to jump in once the groundwork for a system is laid down.
I sit on the fence because of it looking so much like language, and especially in quire 13 it looks like the paragraphs specifically refer to the imagery, and that seems to me to be strange behaviour for data. In some cases i think i see some coordinate-like behaviour in the labels, but i only get two glyphs in before i dont understand the rest, if the first bit is correct, which is of course questionable.