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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 12-05-2019
(11-05-2019, 09:01 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I understand your skepticism Nablator. The word progression is not the correct one. What I wanted to express is the sensation of movement that we see in the VMS script. The glyphs are in movement and this is something that is well appreciated in the autocopyng system of Torsten or how the glyphs © and (i) behave.
© and (i), as some researchers have pointed -like Brian Cham- govern the structure of 'words'. I think these glyphs and its repetitions mark the routes of the Moon and the Sun in the sky and serve as coordinates to identify the stars.
I sincerely believe it's the simplest theory and, according to the Ockham's razor, the most likely.
If you think the VMS is a genuine document with a message you have to give it a sense, but not any meaning but one that is consistent with what people believed 600 years ago.
But how would it work exactly? You say it is simple but i have yet to see you outline a single coordinate, or show how these glyphs would mark the routes of the sun and moon to serve as coordinates to identify stars. When i mentioned that you would likely need a specific location on earth to view these from, you negated this idea. I am not saying you are wrong i just dont understand how you think it works.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 12-05-2019
Sorry Linda but I don't know how the system works. I wish I know. However I am firmly convinced that it is an iconic and astronomical code.
The Curve Line System by Brian Cham, who made a set of statistics with David Jackson, reinforces my hypothesis. The shape of the glyphs matters because it transmits information. The Curve Line System explains not only the design of the glyphs but also the structure of the 'text'. It is a real entry point to understand the VMS.
If you apply this system to an astronomical code the pieces begin to fit.
It's a pity that Brian Cham think now that the VMS is a hoax. He has not left the trap of verbal language. I say this with all respect to his work.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 15-05-2019
As some people have already said, it is very likely that the script was done using a mechanical device. I think the generator of the glyphs was a three or four-ringed volvelle. This would explain the rigid distribution of 'syllables' within a 'word'. I use these linguistic terms for better understanding although I don't believe in them.
Most of the surviving volvelles deal with astronomy, so if the VMS script was done with one of them its nature is likely to be also astronomical.
Like saint Thomas I only believe what I see, and I've seen in volvelles from the time of the VMS the numbers 8 and 4 (this one in its old arabic shape) representing dayligth hours of zodiac signs, not any sign but the solstices. In these volvelles there are two 8 togheter, one for each quadrant of the day, and two 4 togheter for each quadrant of the night.
In the VMS script we see many 8 and 4 (EVA-d and EVA-l) within words, and sometimes also two 88 and two 44. I don't know how to interpret that, only I just want to record a fact that It seems to me important because it has to do with the movement of the rotating parts of the volvelle.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 18-05-2019
As we have seen with the 'last solution' of the VMS, there is always the same assumption: the script is a verbal language, a string of sounds. Why? Why can not it be a visual communication system?
There are many indications that the script is not made up of phonemes or letters but of symbols. The phonemes have no meaning for themselves, the symbols do. Each glyph of VMS script is a symbol that refers to a reality, something we can see mentally.
Here are some clues:
--Single glyphs sequences in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and columns of symbols in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f66r. They are the same glyphs that form strings.
---spaces as 'word separators'. Many times the space is confusing and there are not punctuation marks
--- Gallows as first glyph in paragraphs and gallows extended
---- Line as a functional unit (LAAFU)
-----There are no phrases. The glyphs inside a string are ordered but the groups are no repeated. That's the way a language does not work, but the chains of symbols can do it because they depend more on the will of the author or on a system that we don't know.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 25-05-2019
Can the VMS script be a system of astronomical symbols? I've been wondering for three years this question and I think there are solid indications to believe that yes it is. A powerful clue is that the symbols we know about the planets and the zodiacal signs were created in the 15th century, they are from the time of the VMS. The same impulse that created them could create the symbol system of the Voynich.
But most important of all is the underlying philosophy. We look at the sky and we do not care about one star that another. For the people of the XV century it was different. For them each star was a spirit, a being with a life of its own. That's why I think the VMS script is a catalog of stars. There is nothing to read.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 25-05-2019
It could be so but without working out exactly how it is parsed, and what each glyph stands for, you are left at an impasse.
Yet you seemed to reject the idea that it could have anything to do with things like the Alfonsine tables or the like.
![[Image: Tablas_alfonsies.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Tablas_alfonsies.jpg)
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So if you can't correlate the vms with existing tables or lists, i guess you need to figure out exactly how the star system you imagine would be laid down, and correlate that with what is in the vms.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 26-05-2019
Of course Linda, all the Alfosine works are of fundamental importance to understand the medieval mindset. I use them as if they were the Rosette stone. The Alfonsine tables have to do more with ephemeris, Sun, Moon and planets, but the Tratado de la Octava Esfera (treaty of the eighth sphere) describes the location of each star in its constellation as well as its properties. That meticulousness in giving the exact position of each star I find it amazing and a possible clue to understand the VMS.
But the Alfonsine work that is a true paradigm is the Lapidario, where each stone is linked to a degree of the ecliptic and receives its medicinal virtue from one o more stars.
Well, in the VMS we have a medicinal herbal, we have the degrees of the ecliptic in the Zodiac section, and we have the stars, plenty of stars everywhere. The only thing that is needed is to convince yourself that nice naked women are also stars.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 27-05-2019
My apologies then, i must have misunderstood re the rejection.
How do they give the exact position of the star?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 29-05-2019
I don't think it is possible to decipher the VM script without first understanding the imagery. It is the only way to find a solution. For me the Voynich is a unit with a unique sense, not a kind of encyclopedia.
An essential step is to understand the meaning of the pregnant and naked women. There are many interpretations but the one that has a historical, iconographic and consistent sense with the rest of the manuscript is the one that identifies them with astral spirits.
It is my opinion but it was also that of a great expert in iconology and history of art as Erwin Panofsky.
Maybe it is the water that leads to misinterpretation of naked women, but plants are only born and grow with water and that, among other things, is what the stars bring them.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 31-05-2019
If you are convinced that the pregnant and naked women are really stars, the second step is to relate the balneological or biological section (badly titled) with the zodiac section, where we find the same nice women holding stars. There are 30 for each sign. Logically, each represents a degree of the sphere.
The third step is to relate this degree-star women with the (o) we see in the center of the many stars of the VM. And fourth and last step is linked this (o) with the (o) we see in the script, the most frequent glyph.
In this way and by other indications it is concluded that we are facing as astronomical system.
If someone thinks this is too easy, please explain convincingly the page with nine o's in a row in the outer ring or sphere