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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 05-05-2019
(05-05-2019, 05:36 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The great value of Tratado de Astrología is that it's rigorously contemporary of the VMS. It's the same vision of the world and a similar imagery....
I dunno, Antonio.
I don't think it's the same vision of the world. I think the Tratado is much more astronomical and the VMS more astrological/cosmological. It's like the difference between someone who takes an astronomy course in school (with all the inherent math and technical information) and someone who takes a survey course of astrology and medieval cosmology.
As I said upthread, the VMS just does not seem to me to be created by someone with a technical, analytical mind. It IS someone interested in detail, someone methodical, someone with an interest in plants that borders on biological/botanical, but that's not the same as being analytical in an astronomical sense.
I think the VMS was created by someone interested in plants, the classics, and astrology/cosmology. The Tratado was created by someone who would probably study physics and math (and maybe engineering) if they were in school today.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 06-05-2019
The gallows are of great importance to understand how the script works. In the only pattern that exists in the VMS, the symbols that are repeated four times on f57v, only don't repeat EVA-f and EVa-p but they are divided into quadrants or two hemispheres.
These two glyphs tend to occur on the first lines of paragraphs, what is one thing that stand out as ReneZ says and is a potencial weakness to understand the system.
Also, p and f never are followed by c sequences. They are followed by ch or sh and then can be followed by c.
Well, if you think in two points of importance in the sphere as the conjuction of the Sun with the lunar nodes you can explain all these features, as long as you are convinced that the glyph c stand for the Moon.
The c, cc and ccc, different days of the Moon, can't be next to the lunar node, only the benches which are the lunar phases near the new Moon and the full Moon.
RE: No text, but a visual code - nablator - 06-05-2019
(05-05-2019, 05:36 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.EVA-t is the Sun high up away from the lunar node; and EVA-k is the same but at night, with the Sun 180º under the horizon. EVA-p is the Sun in conjuction with the lunar node; and EVA-f, the same with the opposite node.Wouldn't there be a sequence, always ordered the same of t p k f, then? Even if the glyphs are permuted somehow, wouldn't there be as many t as k as p as f?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 07-05-2019
Good question Nablator!
There are more p and f because the conjunction of the Sun with the nodes occurs twice a month whereas t and k happen every day. When the conjuction with the Moon also occurs is well represented graphically with the benches under the gallows: cth and ckh are the new Moon and the full Moon; cph and cfh are the eclipses. These last glyphs are few.
I don't know how the system is ordered, but I think it has to do with the identification of the stars by their position in the sky.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 09-05-2019
One of my strongest convictions regarding VMS is that the script and the imagery are related. If I did'nt believe it, I would have lost interest in the manuscript because it would seem impossible to decipher it.
I don't believe in a linguistic solution but I really appreciate the research that professor Stephen Bax did. He highlighted the importance of some key images such as the Moon in conjuction with the Pleiades and Aldebaran. Marco also contributed some evidence pointing to a representation of the lunar mansions.
There are other images in the VMS that suggest the lunar mansions, that's why I think in the script there are several glyphs that represent different positions and phases of the Moon.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 09-05-2019
(09-05-2019, 05:30 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I don't believe in a linguistic solution but I really appreciate the research that professor Stephen Bax did. He highlighted the importance of some key images such as the Moon in conjuction with the Pleiades and Aldebaran. Marco also contributed some evidence pointing to a representation of the lunar mansions.
...
I don't what to take anything away from Bax because he was a genial man, died too young, and he's no longer here to defend himself, but the idea of Pleiades (and of the plant) was not original to him. What he did was to take existing "translations" that had a higher degree of acceptance than others within the Voynich community (Pleiades, Centaurus, "daiin" as "and") and present them in the context of a specific language or as an academic paper.
His main contention was that the VMS was an Arabic substitution cipher.
There is still no proof that the seven stars represent Pleiades (they probably do, it was an extremely popular theme found in many medieval manuscripts, but there were other interpretations for seven stars in the Middle Ages that should not be overlooked).
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 09-05-2019
(09-05-2019, 05:30 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One of my strongest convictions regarding VMS is that the script and the imagery are related. If I did'nt believe it, I would have lost interest in the manuscript because it would seem impossible to decipher it.
I don't believe in a linguistic solution but I really appreciate the research that professor Stephen Bax did. He highlighted the importance of some key images such as the Moon in conjuction with the Pleiades and Aldebaran. Marco also contributed some evidence pointing to a representation of the lunar mansions.
There are other images in the VMS that suggest the lunar mansions, that's why I think in the script there are several glyphs that represent different positions and phases of the Moon.
Why would the phases have glyphs instead of images, though. Would it be augmented by other coordinates?
I came across something the other day which said that when the moon is found near the pleades in a certain phase, it is when to add an extra month to the lunar calendar to catch up to the solar calendar. Could this be something that fits with your theory?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 10-05-2019
As I believe in a iconic script, I think (sh) is (ch) plus something, the topstroke or the plume, and these glyphs represent waxing gibbous Moon and waning gibbous Moon.
Emma made a powerful observation about sh. She said: a word ending © looks like it is 'missing' something from the end. What if that missing something had been moved over to the sh[font=Arial]?[/font]
[font=Arial] [/font]
[font=Arial]Well, I totally agree with this observation, given that there is a progression of c,cc, ccc, cccc that ends with ch and sh, and it is nothing other than the journey of the Moon.[/font]
[font=Arial] The plume of the sh and the different way it is connected with ch is another clue. The plume moves[/font]
RE: No text, but a visual code - nablator - 10-05-2019
(10-05-2019, 05:29 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, I totally agree with this observation, given that there is a progression of c,cc, ccc, cccc that ends with ch and sh, and it is nothing other than the journey of the Moon.I would very much like to know where you saw this "progression".
Quote:The plume of the sh and the different way it is connected with ch is another clue. The plume moves[/font][/font]The plume is spoon shaped. Therefore the VMS is a cook book.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 11-05-2019
I understand your skepticism Nablator. The word progression is not the correct one. What I wanted to express is the sensation of movement that we see in the VMS script. The glyphs are in movement and this is something that is well appreciated in the autocopyng system of Torsten or how the glyphs © and (i) behave.
© and (i), as some researchers have pointed -like Brian Cham- govern the structure of 'words'. I think these glyphs and its repetitions mark the routes of the Moon and the Sun in the sky and serve as coordinates to identify the stars.
I sincerely believe it's the simplest theory and, according to the Ockham's razor, the most likely.
If you think the VMS is a genuine document with a message you have to give it a sense, but not any meaning but one that is consistent with what people believed 600 years ago.