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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 02-05-2019
(02-05-2019, 07:34 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the double page number 110, you can see well in the margins this kind of pine cones. They are like the ripples or undulationes that we see, par example, in Nicole Oresme's Livre du Ciel et du monde, but it is as if the author wanted to represent the ripples in perspective, in space.
It is a form of representation similar to that of the VMS. You can even guess where the famous armadillo came from.
On the page 88 there is an image of the sphere curdled with stars. At the poles you can see tubes like in the VMS. They are the tubes used by the stars to go down to Earth
Thank you for the page numbers, the manuscript is quite interesting, thanks for pointing it out.
However, to me this does not resemble the pine cones, it just seems to be embellishment of the chart, which seems pretty scientific to me, i dont think the embellishment is meant to add to the portrayal, i take it as decoration. At best it may be an indication of the unknown, or spiritual realm outside the reality portrayed, whereas in the vms it does not seem to be decoration, but representative of something specific which intereacts with the other parts of the imagery. I dont believe in the armadillo, nor do i see it in this page.
On page 88 i think the tube things are indications of the first point of aries and the first point of libra, these mark the spring and fall equinox respectively, i don't thing star tube travelling is implied at all, instead it shows that the sun can be seen at specific points on these days, that it aligns with the celestial equator at these times, perhaps seen through tubes, or other openings in architecture from earth.
I do find the map on page 32 extra interesting due to Ceuta's portrayal.
RE: No text, but a visual code - ReneZ - 02-05-2019
What I like is that there is a lot of 'free hand' curly stuff, which one also sees in the Voynich MS, e.g. the upper right circle of the rosettes page, and many of the paths between the circles on the outside of it.
Page 73 is a good example, but there are many. There are also the typical 'tiles' in the borders.
Finally, and inconsequentially, I like that it also has a castle. Since the MS is from Spain, this castle obviously does not have Ghibelline crenelations.
RE: No text, but a visual code - MarcoP - 02-05-2019
Here is some older discussion of Villena's Tratado on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. At that time, I was particularly interested in the "star globe" at p.88, but several details (including sun/moon faces) compare well with the VMS.
RE: No text, but a visual code - DONJCH - 03-05-2019
Hi Linda,
To me the "tubes" look rather like the mounting points for a rotating globe of the Earth, or perhaps an early attempt to represent such.
While the cloudy drawings overall may not be that similar to the pinecones, the individual bubbles with dots inside to me seem very similar to the VMS.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 03-05-2019
They're not nearly as ornate as the Spanish manuscript, but the corners of the 12th-century Eberbach ms also have loops with dots:
I found this one a few years ago and was never able to locate the original source. I think it's needlework. Loops, scales, and dots:
This is one I've posted on my blog (Eadwine Psalter). Scales, loops, and dots:
I think I've posted this one before, also... Tiberius C VI, dots in scales:
These manuscripts are from all over. Scales are dots are not uncommon.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 03-05-2019
(03-05-2019, 02:50 AM)DONJCH Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Linda,
To me the "tubes" look rather like the mounting points for a rotating globe of the Earth, or perhaps an early attempt to represent such.
While the cloudy drawings overall may not be that similar to the pinecones, the individual bubbles with dots inside to me seem very similar to the VMS.
I could see it being mounting points. The Portuguese flag eventually adds an armillary sphere to its design. Note also the castles in the flag somewhat match the castle for Europe in the world map. This would be consistent with showing Ceuta on the world map.
I can see where the pinecone idea comes from, i just don't think they are analogous in meaning, here i think it is abstract decoration of the void outside the celestial sphere, this is not what i think it is in the vms. JKP's examples show that similar decoration has been used on plants and rooves, these at least are 'real' things, and compare better than abstract designs. I think the pinecones in the vms denote mountains that are volcanic in origin.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 03-05-2019
About the dots and their possible meaning in the VM, I remember seeing an explanation in a family of manuscripts but unfortunately I didn't take note.
Basically, when the "scales" are mountainous terrain, one manuscript had a little "tree" or plant on each bump. In a later copy, these plants on mountains were reduced to dots or tiny dashes on scales.
So I think that dotted scales might in some cases be shorthand for mountains with vegetation, or fertile hills or whatever. But this is just extrapolated from a pair of manuscripts I can't remember, so take it with a dot of salt.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 03-05-2019
(02-05-2019, 06:22 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I like is that there is a lot of 'free hand' curly stuff, which one also sees in the Voynich MS, e.g. the upper right circle of the rosettes page, and many of the paths between the circles on the outside of it.
Page 73 is a good example, but there are many. There are also the typical 'tiles' in the borders.
Finally, and inconsequentially, I like that it also has a castle. Since the MS is from Spain, this castle obviously does not have Ghibelline crenelations.
I see this manuscript's freehand curly stuff, especially the tiles and trillium designs, along with the clouds that resemble somewhat the vms pinecones, as possibly indicating heavenly realms beyond the celestial sphere, but i see the rosettes as more earthbound, representing water and rock formations (rivers, deltas, waves, sand dunes, stratified rock, mountains, volcanoes) with the heavenly or abstract religious representations held within the nebuly lines.
I thought at first the circular castle had 6 towers but it has 7.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Linda - 03-05-2019
(03-05-2019, 01:28 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.About the dots and their possible meaning in the VM, I remember seeing an explanation in a family of manuscripts but unfortunately I didn't take note.
Basically, when the "scales" are mountainous terrain, one manuscript had a little "tree" or plant on each bump. In a later copy, these plants on mountains were reduced to dots or tiny dashes on scales.
So I think that dotted scales might in some cases be shorthand for mountains with vegetation, or fertile hills or whatever. But this is just extrapolated from a pair of manuscripts I can't remember, so take it with a dot of salt.
I agree with that idea, the other one i hold to the side is that the dots indicate minerals.
Was it the Beatus maps? I find these most analogous to the depictions of mountains in the vms. To me the pinecones, with the additions of finials, indicate mountains with volcanic origin, versus uplifted sedimentary rock which is the more general bumpy layered looking items. They all seem to be painted blue to indicate runoff of precipitation or glacial melt, and erosion seems to be indicated in some cases as well, ie plants would not grow if it was just rock and water, it is the mixture of the two, which allows for life to exist.
![[Image: BeatusLiebana-768x403.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/BeatusLiebana-768x403.png)
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 05-05-2019
The great value of Tratado de Astrología is that it's rigorously contemporary of the VMS. It's the same vision of the world and a similar imagery. There are tiles in both to represent the stars because the eighth sphere is the roof of the world and the stars are like glued to it.
The Tratado de Astrología has helped me to interpret the script. In the circular diagrams there is a line from top to bottom: the eclipse line. We call it now the syzigy line, when Sun, Moon and Earth are aligned.
I think the gallows glyphs stand for the position of the Sun at its maximum height and in relation to the lunar nodes, the caput and cauda draconis.
EVA-t is the Sun high up away from the lunar node; and EVA-k is the same but at night, with the Sun 180º under the horizon. EVA-p is the Sun in conjuction with the lunar node; and EVA-f, the same with the opposite node.
This would explain the importance of the gallows at the beginning of the paragraphs and in the first line as a starting point for the star or stars in its journey through the sphere.