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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 16-12-2023
Regarding the potential presence of religious content in the VMs: If such content is unrecognized, does that mean it is not present? What is the blazon for the heraldic insignia of the Pope who initiated the tradition of the cardinals' red galero?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Hermes777 - 16-12-2023
There may be more religious content than it seems, but for all of that it is not overtly religious and is clearly not ecclesiastical. As you say, there may be heraldic symbolism, but heraldry is largely the symbolism of the nobility. I suspect there are heraldic allusions (specific to the Sud Tyrol) but I'm not sure they are put to theological purposes, other than the expressions of piety we might expect in almost any work of that period.The heraldry doesn't change the fact the manuscript is not very religious overall. Its background is more aristocratic than ecclesiastical.
In any case, as Antonio says, the influence of Lllull on the text is from his methods and the work doesn't share in Llull's religious ambitions. Llull devised his systems for missionary purposes. The Voynich may be more Christian than meets the eye, but it doesn't seem to engage in inter-religious debates or apologetics of any kind. Llull's methods are being put to secular purposes.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 17-12-2023
Hermes777, I don't think there is any type of linguistic content in the script, not even letters of any alphabet. I believe that there are only astronomical symbols and numbers and nothing more.
I know it's very difficult to accept this, but that's why I think Voynich is such a long-lasting problem. I am persuaded, and I have said it many times, that the real problem with this genuine document is understanding the mentality of the people who made it.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 17-12-2023
Could you "translate" a page though? Like, make sense of a whole chunk of text? The symbols and numerals must indicate something, right?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Hermes777 - 17-12-2023
(17-12-2023, 09:09 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Could you "translate" a page though? Like, make sense of a whole chunk of text? The symbols and numerals must indicate something, right?
One possibility, pursuing Antonio's idea, might be a demonstration of the Platonic year.
In theory, this is when you start with all seven planets in alignment, and then precess them at their mean speeds, exhausting all combinations until you arrive back with the seven planets in alignment - a full cycle, representing all time and all possibilities.
If the Voynich glyphs represent planets, different combinations (vords) mark different points in the cycle.
This is simple enough, but if you add planetary retrogradation the combinatorics becomes complex.
Might it be something like this?
I am reminded of the Chinese I Ching, which is theoretically like this. The 64 hexagrams (binary) represent the full cycle of possibilities. The meanings of the lines are fixed, but they "move" (mutate). Oracles are obtained from synthesizing a meaning from a particular combination of lines (a sort of 'emergent intelligence' that arises out of complexity.)
Otherwise, the paradigmatic Book, the Bible, offers an example of text-as-time. Alpha to Omega. It starts with Genesis and ends with the New Jerusalem. The idea is a text that spans the whole cycle of time, the Great Year.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 17-12-2023
We need to know the things that the creator(s) of the VMs knew. They knew heraldry and they knew their history.
The blazon is bendy, argent et azure. It is the armorial insignia of the Fieschi family of Genoa. The pope in this matter was Innocent IV (Sinibaldo Fieschi), who began the red galero tradition. He also made several of his nephews into cardinals, Ottobuono was elected Pope Adrian V.
The VMs artist has built an intentionally dualistic interpretation into the tub patterns on the White Aries page. The radial cloaking device works so well that the non-radial interpretation just gets skipped over and forgotten. There is an interpretation of orientation in which this illustration makes historical sense, and it has been intentionally disguised by VMs artist - along with the subtle inclusion of proper hierarchical placement and a quite a bit more.
This reveals the artist's knowledge of religious history. It also reveals that the artist (at least) has chosen to function with methodology that employs elements of visual deception and structural verification. It reveals a level of 'sophistication' (trickery) that was not previously appreciated.
Does VMs artistry lead to the heart of the matter, which is valid glyph interpretation?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 18-12-2023
Koen wrote:
Could you "translate" a page though? Like, make sense of a whole chunk of text? The symbols and numerals must indicate something, right?
There is no text. Just aggregations of glyphs and each one of them represents an astronomical object or a spatial position.
For example, the gallows represent the Sun in both hemispheres. The c-shaped glyphs represent the moon in different phases. The benched gallows mean that the sun and the moon are on the same degree of the sphere, the new moon. The symbols that have a little circle represent stars...
I don't know the reason why it goes from one group of glyphs to another. The code is flexible, hence it seems that there are two languages. This is absurd. I already know, but it's what I believe.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 21-12-2023
Whether or not you have my vision of the script, there is no doubt that valuable information is lost by replacing the glyphs with letters. By making this change, the shape in which the author conceived the glyphs disappears. For example, we fail to see the symmetry with which the gallows are created, why these glyphs rise above the writing line, or why the left leg of two of them is similar to another glyph with an arrowhead that remains on the writing line.
All of these details have been lost when doing any transliteration of the glyphs. Not to mention why the scribe has decided to repeat two of the glyphs up to three consecutive times.
In short, by replacing the glyphs with letters of the alphabet or any other signs, the document is being seriously adulterated. The VM is then not analyzed as it is but as something else.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 26-12-2023
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These examples of the c glyph under the benched gallows and a few more that Wladimir D contributed are an indication of the iconic nature of the script.
In my interpretation, these one-legged gallows are the position of the sun in the lunar node, that is, where eclipses form. What the author is representing is the transit of the moon.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 27-12-2023
I repeat the two images from before because there is an error and they are not visible.
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It is not just the glyph c under the benched gallows, but that entire succession of glyphs c.
I already gave my interpretation before. Why does the scribe choose this succession of the same glyph?
Is it possible that I'm the only one who sees that the script is an astronomical visual representation?