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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: [split] University of Vienna Voynich Manuscript seminar - bi3mw - 05-10-2023
(05-10-2023, 04:08 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have sometimes been annoying saying for years that Panofsky's ideas are fundamental to understanding the iconography of the Voynich.
Right, you have been supporting Panofsky's ideas for a long time in "your" thread. Perhaps you should give detailed reasons there why this is so (with sources etc.). That would definitely be more constructive than questioning reputations here without cause.
RE: [split] University of Vienna Voynich Manuscript seminar - Antonio García Jiménez - 05-10-2023
Marco, if you think it is not useful to quote Panofsky, that is your problem. He was an authority on iconography in the 20th century and said very clearly what the female figures meant, which is really the key to the entire interpretation of the VM.
bi3mw, I have not questioned anyone's reputation. Review carefully what I have written.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 05-10-2023
We were going a bit too much off topic, posts moved.
Antonio:
The thing with Panofsky is that we really only have relatively informal quotes from him. For any analysis to be authoritative, you really need a formal publication. Of course, what someone like Panofsky said is certainly interesting and worth reading. But what we have now is an opinion without much substance, which unfortunately does not allow us to see what exactly is meant and to interact with the argumentation. It's more of a take it or leave it kind of scenario.
Also, his statements were made decades ago. All scientific disciplines have moved since then. The cutting edge of today is the old fashioned of tomorrow.
RE: No text, but a visual code - bi3mw - 05-10-2023
(05-10-2023, 04:08 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have sometimes been annoying saying for years that Panofsky's ideas are fundamental to understanding the iconography of the Voynich.
I repeat my questions:
What exactly is your theesis ( concrete description ) ?
Which statements of Panofsky do you refer to ( sources ) ?
In which form do you see yourself argumentatively confirmed in Panofsky`s statements resp. where is there a connection ?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 05-10-2023
I am happy to answer you briefly:
1º The iconography of the VM basically shows how the stars of the zodiac influence plants. They are what give them their medicinal virtues. That is the astrological message of the book and the script reflects it with astronomical symbols and the respective positions of the sun, moon and stars. This is essentially my theory.
2º On René's page you can read Panosky's opinions. The most important ones in terms of iconography are:
--The stars transmit hidden powers to the plants. These are astral spirits
--There must have been a second book that included animals and stones
--There is a part taken from a manuscript of Alfonso X the wise. That is, the astrological lapidary.
3º I have already said that iconographically I follow Panofsky's opinion. He did not say it explicitly, but in my opinion the female figures represent the astral spirits he spoke of. And all that plumbing that we see in Quire 13 is nothing more than the expressive method by which they descend to Earth. My contribution is that the images correspond to the script and that there is only that message. There is no text, just strings of symbols.
RE: No text, but a visual code - bi3mw - 05-10-2023
(05-10-2023, 08:01 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.He did not say it explicitly, but in my opinion the female figures represent the astral spirits he spoke of.
Just to clarify, this assumption refers to the following statement by Panofsky ?
Quote:Question:
What's it about?
Answer:
So far as can be made out before the manuscript has been decoded, its content would comprise: first, a general cosmological philosophy explaining the medical properties of terrestrial objects, particularly plants, by celestial influences transmitted by astral radiation and those "spirits" which were frequently believed to transmit the occult powers of the stars to the earth; second, a kind of herbal describing the individual plants used for medical and, conceivably, magical purposes; third, a description of such compounds as may be produced by combining individual plants in various ways.
RE: No text, but a visual code - tavie - 05-10-2023
The link to Rene's collection of Panofsky's views is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. People can judge for themselves if there is something there that is both "fundamental" and ignored by forum members, as you've claimed.
It appears to me that what you find objectionable is that no one accepts the link you keep trying to tie between Panofsky's views and your own theory that there is no text.
Many are already of how astrology's close ties to medieval medicine and herbal works. Many may think (me included) that it probably features more than it already obviously does in the cosmology section.
None of that logically leads to the conclusion there is "no text". No matter how much you cite Panofsky, d'Imperio, Friedman, no matter how much you talk about we need to understand the "medieval mind", this does not lead to "no text". In fact, wouldn't this part "herbal describing the individual plants used for medical and, conceivably, magical purposes" contradict the idea that there is no text?
It could well be that the nymphs are the astral spirits, and the pipes in the Balneological section are their journey. I have no issue with that. But you seem to talk about it like it's a big breakthrough. It isn't. It doesn't take us anywhere. So what reaction are you expecting from us every time you cite Panofsky and are constantly disappointed with its lack of appearance? It feels that you expect us to jump from "The Great Panofsky said this" to "Ah, the no text theory must be right."
I can't speak for the others, but that is why I 've been ignoring it lately whenever you cite Panofsky. That, and the fact that I haven't been to this thread for a while because it contains far more "bump" posts than any new developments of your theory. I think I've said it before: if you spent more time addressing the flaws of your theory; looking for any contemporary "non-text text"; and trying to match the pages of "non text" to contemporary star charts, you might get more engagement.
RE: No text, but a visual code - bi3mw - 05-10-2023
(05-10-2023, 08:53 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.None of that logically leads to the conclusion there is "no text".
Thanks Tavie, the mental leap to a "no text theory" would have been my next question.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 06-10-2023
Ok Tavie, if you agree that female figures are astral spirits, why don't you try to convince the forum that there is no biological or balneological section in the VM? Because that simple assumption of Panofsky's ideas would radically change the way we see the book.
I am amazed at the frivolity with which people talk about the great researchers of the last century. It seems that in this matter no one wants to stand on the shoulders of giants to see better.
Of course, it does not follow from Panofsky's ideas about the iconography of VM that the script is not text. I have never said that. What I always say is that understanding the iconography is the first step, a necessary step to understanding the script.
I know that my theory about the script is absurd for our mentality, that is why I have always said that understanding iconography would help us see that the script is only a means of uniting the stars with the plants, something that is perfectly conceivable within the medieval magical astrology.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 14-10-2023
I am going to talk about another great researcher of the 20th century: William F. Friedman, who with his wife Elizebeth spent several years of his life studying VM. Friedman was no amateur. He was one of the best cryptanalysts of the century.
We know the conclusion he reached thanks to another great cryptanalyst, John Tiltman, who wrote it in a summary of his own study in 1967. In short, for Friedman the Voynich was a very primitive form of synthetic universal language such as was developed in the form of a philosophical classification of ideas by Bishop Wilkins in 1667 and Dalgarno a little later.
In my opinion, the implications of Friedman's solution to the script have not yet been delved into. Any of us who have been analyzing the problem for years will have had the impression that the script works like Lego. You can put and remove pieces at will. That impression is what Friedman captured in his sentence when he said that the script worked as a synthetic language for classifying ideas.
What I want to say, and this is the fundamental idea, is that for Friedman glyphs were not just meaningless signs but symbols with meaning. Each glyph has a semantic value. I think something similar. But for me these are not phonetic symbols but visual ones, something like hieroglyphs.