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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 17-07-2023
Blushing cheeks are a stylistic convention in certain periods and/or regions - both for male and female figures. Once I considered studying this, but my first impression was that the practice was too widespread to be informative.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 17-07-2023
It's true. It is not a sufficient trait to distinguish between the sexes.
But I still think that there are no male figures, and if there were any, it does not contradict the firm will of the author to draw women. Nobody starts drawing more than 500 female figures without a strong reason to do so.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 17-07-2023
There were certain artists who painted all the characters in the illustration with red lips and cheeks, It was a thing. One of various techniques for the painting of faces. And it matches with VMs dating.
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The planets are not merely men and women. The planets are named for and represented by the Roman deities: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, while the Sun (Sol) and Moon (Luna) are represented by Apollo and Diana. There are various medieval examples where these connections are fully illustrated, but the VMs doesn't do that. The VMs only personifies these "stars" in the Zodiac.
Besides their stars, the nymphs of Pisces, Aries and Taurus have their tubs. And the two nymphs at the top of VMs Pisces, (see Post #1117) have matching tub patterns. This is a continuation of the pairing paradigm that is also found in the initial VMs Zodiac medallions. The occupants of these tubs, a male and a female, reflect the idea of the pairing of complementary opposites as found in the VMs Gemini medallion.
The pairing of tub patterns, furthermore, serves as an introduction to a semi-ambiguous bit of VMs heraldry which leads to the historical reference that represents the Genoese popes and the origins of the cardinals' red galero tradition on VMs White Aries. (+ papelonny)
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 17-07-2023
I doubt that you can convince someone of what you say. Every theory has to have a basis on which there is general agreement. Mine has not achieved that degree of agreement either, but I try to give examples that everyone understands.
I say that the female figures in the zodiacal section are the same as those in Quire 13. What they do is move, go down. Let's see it with two examples.
There are many types of tubes but these of Pisces...
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...are the same as these others from Quire 13
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It's clear they've gone down the tubes. In other Quire 13 images, this idea of going down is reinforced. This means that the stars of the zodiacal constellations are supposed to come down to Earth. It is a hypothesis, but I think that with a credible basis.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 20-07-2023
The VMs Pisces illustration has tubs in the outer ring and tubes in the inner ring. I'll go with the tubs and their quasi-heraldic patterns. It relies on an understanding of historical events.
The nymphs of the Pisces inner ring are positioned somewhat strangely as they appear to be flowing out of their tubes. In the illustration of f78r, the tubes are similar, but what passes through them it not identified. The conduit may be similar, but what passes through is not necessarily the same. The nature of the initial substance is unknown, but it appears to fill one pool and then flow on to another. Water is easy to represent. There are many ways to do it. What about starlight? Where are the relevant artistic representations of starlight?
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 22-07-2023
It must be understood that although there are details that coincide with those of other manuscripts, the Voynich has its own unique iconography, a system of representation that we must try to understand within its pages, its different sections.
Let's interpret this image:
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Although in the zodiacal pages there are naked women who seem to be taking a bath in that kind of tub, I see that this interpretation cannot be correct, since these others are dressed and it doesn't make sense that they did so in tubs full of water.
In Quire 13 the same women are surrounded by tubes on which they perch. What the author wanted to represent is that they go down those tubes. And he has drawn that kind of pools precisely so that we can see them after going down.
And those tubes are the same ones we see on the Rosettes page, a representation of the medieval firmament:
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And what the author probably wanted to represent is how the light of the stars or their essence or their virtues shoot out of those tubes in the direction of the Earth.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 22-07-2023
I agree with your first statement. It is where the VMs coincides with historical manuscripts that there is a better possibility of understanding what the VMs artist has tried to represent. The cloud-based connotations and cosmic connections of the nebuly line, in the historical illustrations and in the VMs, indicate that the interpretations are equivalent. The long investigative difficulty was simply the failure to make the heraldic connection. So, the VMs artist has made a unique iconography, but sometimes used standard cultural interpretations that were relevant in the 1400s, some of which have been long overlooked, if not 'lost' in the present.
As to f71r, 'White Aries': Just like the nymph with the spindle, Lady Necessity, the spindle is an attribute. In White Aries, the clothing, the colors and the patterns are attributes. Thus, there is the investigative potential for the specific nymphs with these particular attributes to be given a 'cultural' interpretation. Hence the Genoese Gambit. [Does the investigator know the armorial insignia associated with the origins of the tradition of the cardinals' red galero?]
White Aries is the most carefully and fully painted page in the VMs Zodiac sequence. There are two reasons for it. When some attribute requires that it be painted a specific color, then it is better disguised if the rest of the page is well painted. And if it is desired that some object of the page should be interpreted as having a white coloration (White Aries), then it is better if the rest of the page is well painted, rather that entirely unpainted.
A closer examination of the "tubs" in the outer, upper left ring, as well as the inner ring at 3 o'clock show some "poorly drawn" examples of tubs without backsides. They don't go all the way around. Perhaps they are some large, flat object positioned in front of the "nymph" character. A large, flat object with color and pattern that someone carried around and stood behind in the Middle Ages - what could that be?
Could it be a shield?
Here's another nymph(?) with a star.
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 23-07-2023
I don't remember how many times I've said this. If you want to defend a theory, create your own thread but don't take advantage of mine.
The only way to know if someone agrees with you is to risk creating your own thread. Then we will see the people who follow your ideas about heraldry, cardinals, Genoese gambit, white Aries, shields and other fantasies that populate the VM according to you.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 23-07-2023
You're the one who mentioned and posted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in your previous post #1,126. Of course, I have an opinion. Am I not allowed to say anything? It is one of the most significant pages in the VMs, along with the cosmos, Melusine, the Agnus Dei and several others.
The matter is simple. When one looks at the White Aries page and sees the nymph with the red hat in the blue-striped tub, either the association of attributes makes historical sense, or it does not. Red hats and blue stripes. These two attributes, in their historical and heraldic manifestations, combine for a very limited presence in historical reality. History is not my fantasy. The elements are built into the illustration and available for interpretation, plus there are multiple supplementary confirmations of the historical interpretation in the structure.
The nymphs of White Aries appear to be lacking in the "string" that connects other nymphs to their stars. Many nymphs on this page are 'holding' their stars directly. That is the same as the image I posted #1,127, which is a religious person holding a star directly. And in the VMs, a pair of religious persons, a pope and a cardinal, among others, holding their stars directly in their hands, without the apparent 'strings' in other VMs examples.
Sidereal influence is indicated by the presence of the stars. Besides the stars, other attributes are used as indicators of interpretation. The artist makes use of many elements with historical and cultural connections, that is what VMs artistry is really about, communication without written language.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 24-07-2023
Honestly, I think the forum rules should prevent this type of response. It is assumed that any open thread is there to answer if you agree or not with what the author of that thread proposes, not for any member of the forum to take advantage of it to defend their own theory of VM.
There are members of this forum whom I hold in high esteem who have rarely or never commented on my thread. That seems fine to me. I prefer it before seeing myself sabotaged over and over again by someone who takes advantage of the fact that my thread is one of the most read.